Almost had to use my knife tonight...

Originally posted by GaryB
This is mostly in support of Wolfmans comments, and I would like to hear from any LEOs who could help clarify the matter, but I have always been under the impression that LEOs are not there to protect, except in a vague general way by removing the criminal after the crime. Specifically, I believe that even if someone threatens you by saying "I will come to your house this afternoon and kill you", there is really nothing the cops will or can do. They cannot/will not come and stake out your house or anything else. I'm sure they might document the incident, write a citation if there is enough evidence, talk to the parties involved, but they're certainly not going to be your protection. I believe this is due to pragmatic considerations (cops can't function as security for anyone who feels threatened, especially in some neighborhoods where this would include nearly everybody). Furthermore, I think there are legal considerations that would also become problematic as, while it is easy enough to gather information after the fact and let the courts sort it out, it's a whole different story if a LEO is present at a conflict between two individuals and has to make quick decisions on what's at issue, who's the BG and GG, how much force is necessary to stop the ensuing violence, etc.
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I agree on the concept that LEOs may support gun control for their safety, but I do not agree that the cop would not do anything about threats.
If the person who made the threats are known, and it's so happened that it's recorded (ie someone left a message on your phone saying that they'll kill you/cut you up/shoot you/etc and they can identify who made it, they can book the guy in for terroristic threats. But I saw that documented in the States, so I dunno whether the Canadian Cops would be able to do something about it.
 
I think Columbine High School is a very good case in point. Dillon and Klebold had threatened people verbally, had a web site documenting this, the police were notified many times, they interviewed them, they also arrested them for breaking into cars (so one can't argue the police had no reason to consider thse "teens" as threats), they were clearly never prosecuted or charged with anything. I could add they had illegal weapons, fuse cord hanging on the bedroom wall, etc. Short of waiving a gun in someone's face, I don't think your likely to get arrested in the US for making threats (unless aimed at a politician or someone of that public stature). And even then the gun waiving would get a slap on the wrist.

Like someone mentioned, in Canada you get 7 years for 2nd degee murder, what are threats going to get you? Put another way, with all the crimes committed and the meger resources given to prosecuters, many serious cases must be plea bargained to nothing. So a threat, substantiated or not, is unlikely to get more than an acknowledgemet that the police are aware of it.

Same reason I gave for why the cops can't be pro-active, or even very effectve in stopping violent crimes, its the numbers. There are so many criminals out there compared to the number of LE personel that, statistically, if cops actively intervened in even a small perentage of violent crimes, their numbers would dwindle rapidly and we would be worse off. In my first reply I didn't mean to imply that LEOs wouldn't or don't race to the scene of violent crimes. But that the way the system is set up, the number of cops, the number of criminals, the number of citizens to protect and the area these people live in make the notion that LEOs exist to provide protection for the citzens absurd.
 
I would agree that they have not enough people to deal with it, and they may not deal with threats, thinking it isn't bad enough. But they do have to take action sometimes.

PS I said the thing about the murder in Canada.
 
I agree that the cops should and do take action at times. However, I think these incidents typically involve a large show of force, SWAT teams or whatever, to throw the outcome in favor of the authorities. While I'm sure that individual patrols will race to the scene of a violent incident between two individuals, as Wolfman said, these incidents have typically been resolved by the time the LEO gets there (again I'm assuming this is due to the number of cops, the number of crimes and the distances involved).

As far as the threats scenario goes, a brother of a guy I knew apparently sent a letter describing how he hated and would like to off a past pesident; he included his return address. I was told he was spending something like ten years in federal prison. Short of this response though, that guy that threatened you will have every opportunity to try to make good on his threats with no police present, there's just no way they can function as bodyguards for those with or without known threats.

Sorry about not realizing it was you post about the terms.
 
This thread has morphed a bit, but defending yourself isn't glamorous and it's a shame Hollywood thinks it is. The average citizen has no idea what is involved in self-defense, unless you're a LEO (who btw have my utmost respect for putting their butts on the line daily)trained to react to situations and the consequences. As I've gotten older(40's) I realized the need to be able to protect myself and my family from an increasingly dangerous world. Carring a weapon is not a simple solution. There are legal ramifications far beyond my ability to discourse them. That's why I took up Karate 7 years ago. It teaches respect, discipline, and integrity. We work on self defense a lot and how to respond to attacks with guns, knives, clubs, etc...I can honestly say I'm in the best shape of my life. I've also gained a lot of confidence in handling difficult situations. Ki-yah!
 
cops most certainly will respond to threats if you are the right person;i.e. a celeb,a politician,a wealthy socialite.Its all about politics and money,despite what the leos say to the contrary;I have experienced this personally.Its like that missing kid in Utah or the kid in Colorado last year.Money,power and influence talks,the average Joe has to take care of himself and then he gets his ass kicked legally for defending himseld. The cops say not to carry or use a lethal weapon and do nothing if you call in a threat ;they would respond very differently if it was their wife or brother or girlfriend or some one close to them,Unfortunately,the average person has to wait until they are physically harmed before the police will intervene=I experienced this,so don't tell me its not true.I don't give a damn,I will carry AND use if I have to protect myself;rely on the cops and you'll wind up dead-THEN they make a big show!
 
Just a quick note on Ren's comment about not believing Full Tang's story:

Yes, it could be made up, however, to me at least, it doesn't fit the usual bragging or vivid tale-like qualities to cause a lot of doubt.

If it is something which could be documented, then yes, we should expect documentation! But his story fits into what MOST self-defense situations are like. No blood, no action, and no police report. However, it is an attack (or at least a crime) which appears to have been prevented by the actions of an alert defender.

Also, although posters of stories actively solicit comments by the fact they are "going public," and such comments are good to kick around, the fact is none of us were there. Full Tang was.

Good show Full Tang! Learn what you can from this and make the appropriate changes. BTW, I too argue (with myself) about the utility of showing one's blade or keeping it hidden. So far, my opinion is both techniques work in the appropriate situations, and the $100,000 question is in knowing the difference! :)

Karl
 
whether or not this story is based on a real occurance, i am glad i read about it and read all these opinions on the matter. Before reading this post, i foolishly thought that brandishing a knife was a good way to avoid trouble... i have never had to do it, but i have been close a few times...

i go out with my friends a lot and i often run into two people who have beef with each other and sometimes being associated with one of those people can get you in a lot of trouble...i have run into some pretty crazy people who have wanted to murder me for being friends with someone they dislike. Also, it is hard to walk away from a situation when you have a weapon, but you responsible forumgoers have made me think a lot harder...

I wouldn't stop carrying my commander, but i do hope to never have to use it like it is designed to be used...
 
Originally posted by Safety Guy
Just a quick note on Ren's comment about not believing Full Tang's story:

Yes, it could be made up, however, to me at least, it doesn't fit the usual bragging or vivid tale-like qualities to cause a lot of doubt.

If it is something which could be documented, then yes, we should expect documentation! But his story fits into what MOST self-defense situations are like. No blood, no action, and no police report. However, it is an attack (or at least a crime) which appears to have been prevented by the actions of an alert defender...

Karl
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Karl,

I couldn't find the thread containing the comments by that fellow named Ren.

Personally, I don't really care if he doesn't believe it. I'm not out to impress him or anyone else here. If he lives in some utopia where everything is peaceful, and everyone is friendly, then good for him. Some of us aren't so lucky.

Karl, one of your comments is incorrect however: There was a police report made by me after the incident.

I did this to cover my ass. In addition, I did tell the 911 Operator that I drew the knife in defense to which their reply was, "Sir we don't recommend people do that because the other person could get a hold of the knife and..." I basically wanted to let them know how frustrated I was with the police and how I had to take the law into my own hands.

I don't want this thread to degenerate into a self defense/combat "what to do in this situation". I also wrote a private letter to Steve Harvey because I felt he misinterpreted my intentions.

My objective really is to ask everyone to look for alternatives BEFORE doing something rash that could have dire consequences. I MADE A MISTAKE. I admit that. I was not in immediate danger and should have just walked away rather than letting it escalate to the point I had to pull out a knife in defense. THAT'S what I'm trying to say.
 
FTC: sometimes people just can't avoid things.
I honked the guy in front of me by mistake. We both are waiting turning right on red, clear intersection, and I have waited for more than 10 seconds, then I tapped the horn twice.
The guy came out yelling that there's a sign not allowing right on red, and I've told him right after I honked I saw the sign and was going to signal a sorry to him anyways.
Good thing he went back to his car.
There were cars behind and the guy was in front of me blocking my way, and I wouldn't be able to see quite clearly whether I could pass him, and turn right and escape if he turned violent. Good thing he did and the apology (which definately rightly deserved, because I was at fault first)
Given if he was going to punch me, he would've tasted a 4D Maglite that I used when I delivered food and now left as a good tool to have.
If we could avoid things like these, by all mean, do so, but if we're stuck with no way out, then we'll have to take it to our own hands.
 
tang,you did nothing wrong;you reacted accordind to a perceived threat level at the time. It is easy and comforing looking back at a situation in the safety of your living room and saying it wasen't as bad as all that. At the time though,it must have been pretty threatening or you wouldn't have reacted the way you did;BTW,you deterred a possible confrotation by your actions.

Calyth,what have we as a society degenerated into: we question the right to defend ourselves,question whether we should even'honk a horn' at someone because godforbid, they are walking around with such a level of rage and anger that they may react totally out of context to the situation.Our gov't. and lawmakers are trying to take away our most basic of rights: to defend ourselves. What would they have us do?Walk around totally vulnerable and defenseless,hoping that local LE will miracously appear at the moment of confrontation?Yet every cop,prison/security guard,fireman emt has the legal right to carry some sort of concealed weapon. Its nice that the cops are out there;they have my respect-they do put their lives on the line and aren't getting rich doing it.But the average citizen has to be able to defend himself/herself,without the fear that they will be prosecuted if faced with a situation where they have to pull a weapon of some sort to defend themselves or others.
 
First, I appreciate everyone's support. It's also great to see others who are concerned with the well being of their own cities, homes and neighborhoods.

Yesterday, I finally discovered why there is so much seedy activity going on in my neighborhood as of late, and why there are people sneaking around in the back alley. I suspect one of the neighbors in an apartment across the street is peddling drugs. There were three teenage punks taking hit off bongs in the alley, and later a female occupant of the apartment was in the alley and took (gave?) something to a car stopped in the alley. I highly doubt they're gun-toting "Bonnie and Clyde" mafioso types. Probably some "mom and pop" pushers trying to profit off other low-lifes, and impressionable teens.

Make no mistake. I don't live in some stereotypical "ghetto" neighborhood, and up until the last few years it was tame except for the odd grafitti on the walls of buildings.

Anyways, if you're not part of the solution your part of the problem right? So I've decided to get involved more civically and will be attending some community meetings with other concerned citizens in the neighborhood. It's a start...
 
Don't be discouraged FTC, one person can make a difference. ;)

When I moved to my present home, I had a similar problem with alot of cars "stopping by" at the house across the street. Now these cars stopped and stayed close to the curb for only a matter of minutes. This went on for a while until someone decided to mess with my streetside mailbox and some old antique wagon wheels that I had by the sidewalk. They decided to do a little remodeling by knocking them over. Well, to settle the problem I decided to "lighten up" the situation by replacing my old front porch light with a light fixture that puts out about 125 watts of BRIGHT white light. I am talking stadium light bright!! :D :D To complement with the front of the house, I placed a similar light fixture on a corner of the house by the driveway that illuminates the entire driveway and back of the house. This baby puts out about 500 watts of that same BRIGHT white light. With the outside of my house illuminated to this extent, no one has caused any mischief anymore, thankfully. This seems to have alleviated the problem, although not completely because cars still occasionally stop by at that house across the street.

They were lucky that night because I was working.....I don't think that they would have even thought about crossing my property line if I had come out my Winchester Defender 12 gauge. In this day and age, it seems that WE must take care of our family and property on our own. And what do I think of the police?? Well, IMHO, they will arrive in time only to clean up the mess. :D ;) :D
 
bubbala1: damn right...
If that road rage guy was going to hurt me I wonder how fast the LEOs could appear to help me out. Sure I'd have witnesses but then I'd probably get hurt if he had done so.
It's a pity that there's no spelt out right of self defence in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (don't argue with me, I've just read through the chapter on that and nothing said so). Sure some nice cops would exercise good discretion, however I'm not counting on encounter them if real bad s**t hits the fan.
It's been a nice neighbour hood here for 6 years. Recently, wannabe gangster type of teens are hanging around and got me a bit worried. I live like 5-10 minutes from a local mall.
FTC: glad to hear that you're participating in that. However I doubt that I could do anything serious about the local stuff. I don't really believe that one man can make a good difference. All I know is that some bad people are messing with the local business, while I doubt I could do anything with that either. It doesn't hurt to try though ;)
 
The most important "goal" for a dedicated LEO is the protection of human life.

There is NOT a police officer who took his oath to heart who is not willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save another's life. Sadly it happens many times each year, with LEO's getting killed, disabled or injured while protecting another.

LEO's must follow the Policy and philosphies of the administration. If the Boss is not big on aggressive proactive patrol, ample firepower for the street guys, and pushing to put enough cops on the streets, the street cops are always at a disadvantage. It seems in many jurisdiction the cops have ineffective firepower and are forced to meet superior firepower that is in the hands of the bad-guys.

But when the Sh*t hits the fan, unless the LEO happens to be witness, you will need to call for assistance and the chances of a police officer being in close enough proximity to make that critical difference is NOT 100%. Therefore, you the citizen, might just have to be the only person responsible for self-protection and self-preservation. Most LEO's know this and are generally very supportive of good people doing whatever they need to do to protect themselves from the dregs of society. It is the Politician District Attorneys who put the Cops in the crummy position of investigating the actions of a citizen who took an aggressive stance against an evil doer.

In 1997, an Insurrance adjustor, thje father of four kids, "joe middle class" was driving on I-89 in NH minding his own business when a car full of 19-21 year old "punks" started to play "chicken" with him at 70MPH. The Insurance Man dialed 911 with his cell phone and the police were dispatched. The 911 dispatcher TOLD the man to pull over an await the Police [the ETA was six minutes]. The man REFUSED and said he would just continue south at the speed limit until he saw a Police car. Approx 60 seconds later the car started to "bump" his. They then pulled aside his and someone threw a beer bottle. he drew a semi-auto pistol and displayed it. The car full of teenagers sped off. The Police unit arrived, the man explained what happened and the car with the punks arrived to FILE A COMPLAINT. The LEO and the LEO's Boss took a position that the actions were justified. The County Attorney did not, and presented a slanted view to the grand jury and the man was indicted for "criminal threatening with a firearm" which is a felony in this State. Although the man was ultimately cleared, he lost his job, lost thousands of dollars, and the media crucified the police [who remained very supportive of the man]. The one thing the man did NOT lose was his health, for had he not displayed that firearm he would have ultimately crashed, or been forced to the side of the road and assaulted LONG before the police arrived. He was alone to either make that decision to become another victim or fight for his life. The Law enforcement community supports this concept.

The buzz term: "taking the Law into one's own hands" is not something spoken by LEO's. We are very supportive or people maintaining the right of self-protection and are very aware of the reality that we simply cannot be in the right place at the right time ALL THE TIME. The Police perspective is that one needs to be fully trained with whatever tool he/she has chosen for self-protection and to take whatever action you must to maintain your personal safety UNTIL the police arrive. If that requires you to take the life of some scumbag who has just kicked in your front door at 2 Am, then make certain you stay on the line with 911 and inform the responding officers of everything that is going on, and do NOT exit your home with gun in hand..............Then upon arrival of the police, Lawyer-up!!!!
 
Full Tang, getting involved in your community could be one of the best things you ever did, and not necessarily just to "improve things" in your area, but to meet others who feel as you do and who can provide some sort of support group. You get to know them, and they get to know you. If the "authorities" are involved, so much the better because you can ALL get to know one another.

See if you can do some ridealongs with the cops in your precinct. See if the local dept can put on a crime prevention clinic, etc.

Once you become known as a "solid member of the community who is trying to better things," then it will be harder to paint you as a troublemaker/vigilante.

I also think you did well to call the cops after your incident. One thing you might do at a crime prevention meeting is to emphasize "what do you do" when danger is right there and won't go away.

"You mean I should just let him beat me?"

A little of this at a public meeting might embarrass whatever "LEO public speaker" into becoming a bit more realistic. Then again, maybe not. But many of your neighbors will get the message!

Good luck!

Karl
 
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