Alone

[XtianAus]

Sorry Xtian, part of my previous post was in response to your post from yesterday, but then you posted these last few posts whilst I was writing that one which is why I didn't read them before I posted it

You might have noticed that question I asked Nathan in the CPK sub-forum about forcing a patina to 3V steel.
Unfortunately he said that he's never tried it before, so maybe someone in this sub-forum has done it successfully and could share their thoughts?!

I'm from Perth BTW. How about you?

P.S. IMHO the best way to find what exactly will happen is for one of us to test their CPK AND S!Ks to see how they'll stand up to corrosion if left on a beach for a few years. I hereby bestow the honor of this test upon you

This is my $0.02 with regards to knife steels for "long term survival"

1095, O1, etc. = Good for inland regions with lower salinity and humidity levels, and the user wants to be able to strike sparks off the spine with a flint. Some users on a budget favor certain knives in these steels.

CPM 154 = Great all-round steel stainless steel which is very easy to sharpen. Might not be suitable for 6"+ blades whereby the user would want to also do heavy duty tasks such as batoning, chopping, and prying. Nevertheless it's still tougher than most other stainless steels (even CPM-20CV) and not as brittle as some others.

CPM 3V & INFI? = Best all-round steels for most scenarios/environments, especially the one and only Delta protocol.


Disclaimer:- I'm no expert on steels, and obviously two knives made from the same type of steel that have been heat treated and/or finished at different facilities can have strengths and weaknesses that vary from each other, bla bla bla.....

Haha, no prob mate! And I am also from Aus, in Sydney!
Yeah i have a feeling I read that forcing a patina on 3V is very hard to do...but I could be wrong. Other steels that aren't tool steels are suppose to be easier to attend to, if i remember correctly..

But to be honest, I personally, wouldn't bother with forcing a patina on Survive or CPK D3V. On something like bare sr101, most definitely. I'm not sure if you have seen it but here is a photo of Guy's corrosion resistant abilities prior to him adopting D3V (result of leaving it out through winter) with ...i think a HT "inferior" to D3V and the results are amazing as is in my opinion. The 2 other 2 "rusty" looking knives are even further past HT he had used.

Now Guy has adopted D3V which is suppose to show an even greater enhancement to corrosion resistance... even moreso than this picture.
YMMV but I personally think this is as good as it gets for corrosion resistance on a non-stainless blade and wouldn't bother with trying for a patina. Just my opinion

and I certainly agree with your above post about the summmary of those steels! Which forces me to say....I sure would love to see a D3V vs INFI head-to-head review to see where each steel shines in which area...in most regards they seem to be on pare. If I were to guess, toughness may slightly favour INFI or be equal, corrosion resistance may favour D3V or equal, edge retention would favour D3V and ease of sharpening would favour INFI...making them equal all-rounders but in different areas. But who knows, I'd really find a comparison interesting! Either way, as an overall steel, both these 2 steels are in a league of their own it seems compared to a majority out there.

I do believe though, in regards to 20cv, that Guy's 20cv is pretty damn tough and could probably handle most battoning, chopping and prying in all sizes it is available in. He has a cold weather testing video where he prys the life out of a 4.1 20cv and it holds up remarkably well. But I have never tested it myself, so you may also be correct that it couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't handle battoning, chopping, prying.

I am CERTAINLY no steel expert myself and lack experience, but this is what I have gathered through a lot of reading and videos haha


I hope I haven't rambled to much and that this thread continues. I am learning alot already and enjoying the direction it has taken so far!

Ps, have you had the courage to use your CPK FK yet? I haven't...it's my one and only safe queen...for now. If use have used yours, how are you finding it?

 

[OBX351]

Sorry Xtian, part of my previous post was in response to your post from yesterday, but then you posted these last few posts whilst I was writing that one which is why I didn't read them before I posted it

You might have noticed that question I asked Nathan in the CPK sub-forum about forcing a patina to 3V steel.
Unfortunately he said that he's never tried it before, so maybe someone in this sub-forum has done it successfully and could share their thoughts?!

I'm from Perth BTW. How about you?

P.S. IMHO the best way to find what exactly will happen is for one of us to test their CPK AND S!Ks to see how they'll stand up to corrosion if left on a beach for a few years. I hereby bestow the honor of this test upon you

RE: forcing a patina on 3v, I thought I read here or saw on youtube someone who used lemon juice to create a patina on either 3v or a stainless steel. Something with an acid, like tomato or citrus juice, should be able to stain 3v.

 

[XtianAus]

The beauty and the beast

 

[chiral.grolim]

RE: forcing a patina on 3v, I thought I read here or saw on youtube someone who used lemon juice to create a patina on either 3v or a stainless steel. Something with an acid, like tomato or citrus juice, should be able to stain 3v.

Only instance of this that I heard of was a Bark River marked "CPM 20CV" that was clearly NOT said steel. I have never seen 3V with a full surface patina, only the "freckling" where tiny red spots develop and, when removed, leave a black spot.

That typed, I'm off to grab my 5.1 and a bowl of vinegar, will report back soon!

 

[chiral.grolim]

Alright,
I'll work on editing and uploading the video, but after 10 minutes in heinz white vinegar ("5% acidity"), I compared the staining on Buck 420HC, Kershaw 8Cr13MoV, Busse SR-101, Becker 1095CV, and S!K CPM-3V, all uncoated.
Key points: surface finish varied from knife to knife. The Becker had been stripped and patina'd previously, but the surface finish is still the scratchy factory machine-finish straight from the factory after having been stripped. The SR-101 is a modified Ratmandu, the coating stripped from the primary bevel and well polished. The Buck primary bevel has a similar machine finish to the Becker, the Kershaw is more a polished 'satin' finish, and the S!K has the 'peened' finish.

Results:
Within a few minutes, many tiny bubbles had formed across the submerged surface of the becker blade, and bubbles had also formed on the surface of the RMD though far fewer than on the Becker, and none of the other knives evinced any sort of nucleation for corrosion.
After 10 minutes, I removed the knives.
The becker had a very dark line where surface tension from the vinegar had pulled tight, but the rest of the submerged blade was maybe only slightly darker than it previously had been with the protective patina already in place, the previously bright bevel had darkened substantially.
The RMD also showed a dark line from the surface interface with the vinegar, and the submerged blade had very visibly patina'd, probably more noticeable given the lack of any previous patina on the blade and the brightness of the rest of the finish.
The Kershaw and Buck showed no sign whatsoever that they had ever been soaking in vinegar.
The GSO-5.1 showed a very very faintly darker line where the surface of the vinegar had made contact, and there looks like some areas with a slightly dark gray, as if smudged with a finger, on the area that had been submerged, but there is no evidence of shadowing on the sharpened bevel nor any sort of spotting on the blade other than the tiny marks that were there before i submerged it (this was not a new, unused knife).

Conclusion: 10 minutes in 5% salinity vinegar is sufficient to force a patina on Becker's 1095CV and Busse's SR101, but I may need to soak the CPM-3V GSO for significantly longer to get a strong affect from the vinegar, though it did show somewhat more than was seen on the 420HC and 8Cr13MoV. However - and this is important - the fact that the bevel itself appeared unaffected suggests that the soak would need to be VERY long indeed before it impacts cutting performance.

So should I bother editing and updating or wait until performing a longer soak on the 5.1? For that, i would not include the 1095CV or SR101 but would run the 420HC and 8Cr13MoV alongside as "stainless" controls.

 

[Karoi]

Haha, no prob mate! And I am also from Aus, in Sydney!
Yeah i have a feeling I read that forcing a patina on 3V is very hard to do...but I could be wrong. Other steels that aren't tool steels are suppose to be easier to attend to, if i remember correctly..

But to be honest, I personally, wouldn't bother with forcing a patina on Survive or CPK D3V. On something like bare sr101, most definitely. I'm not sure if you have seen it but here is a photo of Guy's corrosion resistant abilities prior to him adopting D3V (result of leaving it out through winter) with ...i think a HT "inferior" to D3V and the results are amazing as is in my opinion. The 2 other 2 "rusty" looking knives are even further past HT he had used.

Now Guy has adopted D3V which is suppose to show an even greater enhancement to corrosion resistance... even moreso than this picture.
YMMV but I personally think this is as good as it gets for corrosion resistance on a non-stainless blade and wouldn't bother with trying for a patina. Just my opinion

and I certainly agree with your above post about the summmary of those steels! Which forces me to say....I sure would love to see a D3V vs INFI head-to-head review to see where each steel shines in which area...in most regards they seem to be on pare. If I were to guess, toughness may slightly favour INFI or be equal, corrosion resistance may favour D3V or equal, edge retention would favour D3V and ease of sharpening would favour INFI...making them equal all-rounders but in different areas. But who knows, I'd really find a comparison interesting! Either way, as an overall steel, both these 2 steels are in a league of their own it seems compared to a majority out there.

I do believe though, in regards to 20cv, that Guy's 20cv is pretty damn tough and could probably handle most battoning, chopping and prying in all sizes it is available in. He has a cold weather testing video where he prys the life out of a 4.1 20cv and it holds up remarkably well. But I have never tested it myself, so you may also be correct that it couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't handle battoning, chopping, prying.

I am CERTAINLY no steel expert myself and lack experience, but this is what I have gathered through a lot of reading and videos haha

I hope I haven't rambled to much and that this thread continues. I am learning alot already and enjoying the direction it has taken so far!

Ps, have you had the courage to use your CPK FK yet? I haven't...it's my one and only safe queen...for now. If use have used yours, how are you finding it?

I don't think I remember seeing that photo so thanks for posting it here!
I might not need to force a patina to my 3V knives as you say, however, it's something I'm very curious to try out. Maybe I'm being a picky/fussy OCD dude, but if I can enhance the corrosion resistance levels to that of a D2 or even CPM154 blade, then I'll have more "peace of mind" when I go camping and fishing on the beach since I wouldn't need to maintain it as frequently. In any case, this knife would then have the "perfect" all round properties IMO (all boxes ticked)

Sorry if it came across as though I was implying that CPM154 and 20-CV cannot withstand abuse from those heavy tasks, it's just that D3V is obviously more suitable. I personally don't use my knives for prying or batoning on a regular basis, and only do light chopping such as delimbing small branches. That's why 154 would be the perfect steel for me if it weren't for the fact that it doesn't as much edge retention as D3V. It's also nice to have the piece of mind that the blade you have on you is in D3V, if/when the need arises to perform a demanding task!!

Unfortunately because of the disgustingly hot weather we've had in Perth and the fact that I've been so busy, I haven't had a chance to do a huge amount with my FK since I received it a few weeks ago. So far I've found it to be an excellent slicer and carver because of the grind and 15 DPS edge. I also like how light in the hand it is. I think it was a great idea of Nathan's to skeletonize the tang.
I hope you can find the courage to start using yours soon!

Nice blades and rocks you have there :thumbup:

 

[chiral.grolim]

after photos:

 

[Karoi]

RE: forcing a patina on 3v, I thought I read here or saw on youtube someone who used lemon juice to create a patina on either 3v or a stainless steel. Something with an acid, like tomato or citrus juice, should be able to stain 3v.

I did a little research a while ago and came across various patina methods that utilized white vinegar, apple cider vinegar, lemon juice, or even mango juice! I have a Jeff White knife in 1095 which came from the factory with the cheek of the blade that had been blued. I've found this to have excellent corrosion resistance and only need to oil the spine and edge (when I know I won't be using it for a while).

Alright,
I'll work on editing and uploading the video, but after 10 minutes in heinz white vinegar ("5% acidity"), I compared the staining on Buck 420HC, Kershaw 8Cr13MoV, Busse SR-101, Becker 1095CV, and S!K CPM-3V, all uncoated.
.............................................
So Should I both editing and updating or wait until performing a longer soak on the 5.1? For that, i would not include the 1095CV or SR101 but would run the 420HC and 8Cr13MoV alongside as "stainless" controls.

I really appreciate you doing this test Chiral!!! I think there's quite a few of us guys who'll be interested to see how this turns out!
This is such a great sub-forum where I've learnt so much from other people, and even won a free sheath giveaway

Edit: Thanks for the progress pics. It'll be interesting to see how much extra soaking time will be required for the 5.1 to achieve a similar amount of patina as the others.....

 

[Mike-The-Knife]

I've been following the show this season and it seems quite good . Not as easy as many would think .

Personally I would bring a saw and a knife and forget the axe for the very reason that as people get weaker and sometimes loose concentration from lack of calories , you become far more likely to put yourself out of the game with the glancing strike of an axe than a saw .

As for the knife . From Survive I have only owned the 5 , the 4.1 and the Necker 2 . Of those the GSO 5 would certainly be best . But given the choice I would take the GSO 6 . The 6 would be better for liming and give more blade for battoning and shelter building . There is no need for an axe or a bigger knife .

 

[a Trexler Ranger]

Snug Pak Softie Elite 5, ESEE 6, Tarp, Gill Net, Paracord, Slingshot, Zebra Pot, Ferro Rod, the alloted amount of food all beef jerky, and rain gear. And I'd wear my leather scout belt from Settlers.

-TR

 

[XtianAus]

Thanks Chiral, you're always full of fantastic review and info!

The photos of Chirals post are not working for me though. Is it only me guys??

 

[Danke42]

Thanks Chiral, you're always full of fantastic review and info!

The photos of Chirals post are not working for me though. Is it only me guys??

No pics. If you quote him you'll see a ton of code but they pics don't show in the quote either.

 

[chiral.grolim]

No pics. If you quote him you'll see a ton of code but they pics don't show in the quote either.

Really? Hmm... I can see them just fine, logged-in or not... something fishy about google-photos... Let's try this: https://goo.gl/photos/dARU8gYWLXC6c8Nq9

The link above is an album, and below are two embeddings of the same photo - does either work for everybody?

Also an update - I left the 5.1 in the vinegar for 4 hours, the result is the last three photos in the shared album. If you cannot tell from my crappy photos (it was past midnight, and my phone doesn't take the best pictures), the result was a slightly darker shade to the blade, particularly at the line where the surface of the vinegar made contact, and a single little tiny orangish spot above that line which may in fact be a bit of rust, but it may be rusting residue from material that was floating around in the vinegar after flaking off the becker previously The cutting edge remains bright and shiny, no visible rust or patina of any kind. Honestly, if the patine line weren't so dark, I doubt a person would notice the slightly darker shade to the areas that were submerged. Again, that is after 4 hours in "5% acidity" white vinegar.

 

[jmb311]

It's a shame that Mary Kate had that happen. It is an example in my opinion of when using a mid size knife to baton that small firewood down would have been much safer. That axe was unwieldy in that application, and it may have cost her 500,000. Wow.

For those of you wanting to learn much more about the show... here is a good read...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1383504-Alone-Season-2/page10

I can't help but think if she wasn't yacking at the camera,she may've been alright.I certainly agree though,that Ax was too much tool for her size and the task at hand. Woman or not,I thought she had a good shot.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Anybody able to see the pics in the posts above?

 

[Silver Needle]

Anybody able to see the pics in the posts above?

Now I can!

 

[Danke42]

Pics are visible now here too.

 

[Silver Needle]

Chiral, if you do any more work on the patina, you should follow up in the mods thread as well. The 4 hour vinegar bath shows why patinas aren't seen much around here!

OBX, does the knife in your avatar have a patina on it or is that something else?

Snug Pak Softie Elite 5, ESEE 6, Tarp, Gill Net, Paracord, Slingshot, Zebra Pot, Ferro Rod, the alloted amount of food all beef jerky, and rain gear. And I'd wear my leather scout belt from Settlers.

-TR

Nice list! Check out the Alone items thread to see more like that. I've been meaning to get over there to update my list. After watching season 2 I'd like to think my list evolved in a practical way.

I can't help but think if she wasn't yacking at the camera,she may've been alright.I certainly agree though,that Ax was too much tool for her size and the task at hand. Woman or not,I thought she had a good shot.

Watching that gave me chills every time they replayed it! Talking wasn't helping her, but taking her eyes completely off of the wood she was striking was also very, very bad. Those European-made axes seem so we'll balanced. I've seen others choke way up to use then for small jobs like she did, but I think the lack of focus was the fatal error. I would have liked to see her get further. Nicole was awesome! She really seemed comfortable (and oddly happy) enough to be there indefinitely.

I've been following the show this season and it seems quite good . Not as easy as many would think .

Personally I would bring a saw and a knife and forget the axe for the very reason that as people get weaker and sometimes loose concentration from lack of calories , you because far more likely to put yourself out of the game with the glancing strike of an axe than a saw .

As for the knife . From Survive I have only owned the 5 , the 4.1 and the Necker 2 . Of those the GSO 5 would certainly be best . But given the choice I would take the GSO 6 . The 6 would be better for liming and give more blade for battoning and shelter building . There is no need for an axe or a bigger knife .

Dude, I love the 5 so much, I can't fully put it into words
You and I are like minded, my pick for this situation would be the 6 as well.

Now, I do agree that all the stresses of being alone and surviving would compromise an individual physically and mentally, I think a knife could be just as dangerous in a weakened state. Some of the contestants from past seasons were true builders and craftsmen and used the axe to process large pieces of wood for cabin style shelters and other things I think would be harder with just a knife and saw. I guess that's dependant on the person's skills. I know the idea of the axe as a hammer and self defense weapon was also brought up and that makes it pretty versatile.

 

[Mike-The-Knife]

LOL , yeah Silver , you and I do think alike . My GSO 5 was my first knife from Survive Knives and I still have it and it's still my go to knife . But although I don't own a GSO 6 , I think if I was trying to actually LIVE in the wilderness for an extended period that the 6 might be the better choice .

 

[XtianAus]

Thanks for taking the time to do that Chiral.
Always appreciate your insight on a variety of topics and the experiments/reviews you do.

Not to mention the amount of photos you post! Who doesnt love photos? They really are worth a 1000 words.

Can i ask how you find the corrosion resistance on your new spec 5.1? I know you had a few issues with your Gso10 that you cleaned up but wondering if there has been an improvement with this new spec?