Alternative power for the shop

[canid]

i'm hoping/trying to rig up a small steam turbine and if possible, a sturdy stirling for a belt drive that could be used with multiple smaller tools.

i have a boiler i know i could run at 15psi, so i'll have to see what kind of torque the turbine will pull at whatever flow rate i can hold at that pressure.

this would be nice, as it would allow direct solar [parabolic collection] and combustion [coal/wood boiler] power. let's just see if i ever get around to finishing either system, but i like the ideas.

 

[deker]

You could easily need about 10 Kw or more of solar to run the shop, (1 Hp = 745 watts, 7.5 +5 +2 =14.5, 14.5 X 745 =10.8 Kw for the hammer-in, plus lighting, etc) and if you use the power grid for backup, you'll need that big electric service too anyway. If you use batteries for backup, it will take a lot of them to work through a rainy day. It's not going to be cheap...or small, a 50 watt solar panel is about 6 square feet

10KW is about what I figure I need for the moment. The plan right now is looking like it may be a military surplus MEP-003A 10KW diesel genset. It will give me 120 1ph, 240 1ph, and 208 3ph power by flipping a switch. Ideally I'd have 2 and have 1ph and 3ph power available at the same time. Now I just need to find one at a good price. I did find some military surplus equipment designed to generate 10KW of power and also provide HVAC (for a 100'x200' tent no less!), vacuum, and compressed air. And they're cheap too! Only issue is that they're powered by a diesel turbine andhave no idea how loud they are in real life. I also know next to nothing about maintaining a turbine engine. Only burns 1.5 gal/hr though and could probably turn the shop into an icebox in 100F weather with the forge running. Oh...and they are about the size of a small pickup truck and weigh 4700lbs, but that's a one time problem

The generator is an attractive economic choice, short term. What about a natural gas fuel cell? They are said to be quiet, how's the price of natural gas locally?

It will probably be a diesel generator for the forseeable future. We live out in the country and there's no natural gas lines out here. Propane delivery is available, but propane just has less available energy at a similar per gallon cost. I just can't justify it.

If you can reduce the electrical demand in the shop, solar could be a reasonable option, but you'd probably still want to be tied to the grid for backup power.

The way my work is going, bigger will be the only way I'm headed. If I was tied to the grid, I'd have no problem. Remember, this isn't about being "green". I like efficiency and all, and if biodiesel ever drops below the price of regular #2 diesel in my area I'll use it, but it's an issue of personal economics for me, not stamping a "Hippie Approved" sticker on my hind end.

If you have not got some of the equipment yet, you could consider gas powered equipment. A gas powered air compressor is pretty easy to come by, as is a gas powered welder (some of which will also function as a generator) and for things like lathes, mills, etc that you don't have yet, what about older line-shaft powered equipment run by a stationary diesel engine?

By the time I replace all of the equipment I already have (welders, compressors, etc) with their gas-powered counterparts I'd have spent most of my budget already as well as having 4 or 5 engines to maintain instead of one on a generator. As neat as old line shafting can be, I'm pretty sure the expense of installation would burn pretty badly too. Add to that the fact that I'd be replacing lots of tools for that as well and it's just no-go.

I'm calling a local DRMO office today to see if I can inspect some generators they have up for auction. We'll see how it goes.

-d

 

[Mike Craddock]

Deker
Have you talked to the power co. about running a seperate service to your shop.
when i built my shop the power co. tapped onto the underground service to the house and ran another 200 amp service to my shop.
no charge for the install just a seperate power bill.

Mike

 

[deker]

Deker
Have you talked to the power co. about running a seperate service to your shop.
when i built my shop the power co. tapped onto the underground service to the house and ran another 200 amp service to my shop.
no charge for the install just a seperate power bill.

Mike,

Like I sad earlier:

I COULD put a separate service to the shop, but since it doesn't touch the house it would be classified as commercial, have rate multipliers based on peak use, and I'd have to pay additional monthly account maint. fees. Oh, and I'd have to trench from the pole or install another pole in the middle of the yard (we've already got one).

So, it's doable, but we really don't want another pole in the yard (especially since it would sit smack in the middle of where we play with the dogs, etc), and I'd have to pay for the trench or the cable. I forget which...I have to pay for one or the other, and it's opposite for residential vs. commercial.

-d

 

[blindhogg]

You could always go the route Joel Sanderson did.
You have to see the photos of his shop if you have not yet. Link below.
http://sandersoniron.com/JoelWeb Page 2.htm

 

[deker]

You could always go the route Joel Sanderson did.
You have to see the photos of his shop if you have not yet. Link below.
http://sandersoniron.com/JoelWeb Page 2.htm

I've seen Joel's site before and it is completely drool-worthy. I'd like to be able to get something done in the shop before I retire though so locating, saving, and restoring a pile of machines like that just isn't going to happen here. I know me, I'm too much of a "quick fix" guy to have the dedication to pull something like that off

-d

 

[JatMat]

I made a fairly long run of 100 amps 220V without too much trouble. A trencher was rented for $150, digging the trench didn't take an hour. PVC conduit is cheap. I pulled the wire through each section of PVC at a time as I was gluing it together, which simplified things for me. I used larger conduit than I needed to make it easier.

I ran into the same problem with obsolete breakers. So I bought one large breaker of the obsolete design and used it to power a sub panel and have any new lines off the sub.

I don't understand the need to increase your house power capacity to 400 amps. I run both my house and my shop on the same 200 amp service. This includes a large phase converter, large machines, air compressor, HT, big welders etc. Between the house and the shop, there is about 3100 sq ft being air conditioned. The wife runs things like the dryer and the oven. There is a water heater. etc. I'm sure all the stuff combined would exceed 200 amps, but it doesn't all get run at the same time. Every wire and every circuit is protected by breakers properly sized for the wire they're protecting. An overload is unlikely, but if one were to occur you're protected. I don't see the need for capacity to run every thing at once because that never happens.

All told, it cost less than a grand and took about a weekend.

This sounds like a viable solution, cost wise and very workable.
Just my HO.

 

[tryppyr]

Deker,

Sounds to me like you've done all your homework, and frankly the best answer seems to be the first answer... spend the $10K and have the line run from your house. I know, it's a hell of a chunk to bite off at once, but you have to ask yourself whether you are willing to make running alternative power to your shop your new all consuming hobby.

Maybe you need to turn the problem around and look at it from a different angle. Instead of trying to figure out how to shave dollars off the install cost, find ways to fund the project and get the dollars back after the fact. For example, take out an equity line of credit on your home to pay for the work. The interest you get charged on the loan can be written off your taxes the same way you write off the mortgage interest. I'd suggest that most banks would consider this sort of work to be a home upgrade, and would have no problem offering you the equity line loan to cover it.

This is how I funded a recent upgrade to my home, replacing old furnace and water heater with a new heat pump and water heater. Granted, the money you get back as tax savings isn't huge (because the interest rates are low), but it's certainly better than nothing, and it lets you get the job done right the first time without having to distract yourself with a new and unwanted hobby.

- Greg