Aluminum forge body?

Sitting on the table like that there is no back-pressure. In the forge it will run different. Buy the flare from Ron if you want the burner to work right and last. That bell reducer setup will be burned off in a few months.

You said you are cheap, and that is why you did it. Cheap people often know that money spent wisely is money well spent. When building a forge, making it robust and able to last for many years is the cheapest path....even though it may cost more initially.
 
You know I'm starting to lean towards building a blown burner. I'm not cheap in the sense that I won't spend money when it is necessary, I just don't like spending twice as much to gain 5%....if you know what I mean.

Stacy, do you have plans for a good working blown burner. Maybe you can answer a few questions I have all in one go.

1. What type of fan do I need? Will just about anything work or do i need something specific?
2. Is the volume of air controlled by a baffle or by an adjustable motor?
3. Is a flare necessary or can I just use black pipe (ie. reuse some parts from my other burner)

Thanks!
 
A stainless flair is best, but a bell reducer will work. You will just have to replace the reducer more often. Over time the flairs are more economical, but you can always switch later on. As stated once everything is up to temp it doesn't really matter muck since the inside of the forge is well over the ignition temperature of propane.

Wayne Suhrbier
 
You know I'm starting to lean towards building a blown burner. I'm not cheap in the sense that I won't spend money when it is necessary, I just don't like spending twice as much to gain 5%....if you know what I mean.

Stacy, do you have plans for a good working blown burner. Maybe you can answer a few questions I have all in one go.

1. What type of fan do I need? Will just about anything work or do i need something specific?
2. Is the volume of air controlled by a baffle or by an adjustable motor?
3. Is a flare necessary or can I just use black pipe (ie. reuse some parts from my other burner)

Thanks!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/704470-Forge-Assembly-WIP


This is the WIP I'm using now to help guide my build...
 
I made a mini-forge and a thread about it and use a $15 hair drier for a blower and it jacks up the heat big time . I just got the parts for 2 or 3 burners ( lots of black pipe in different shapes and sizes , bell reducers, 1 1/4" Y like the Zoeller burner, parts for a forge body
(5 gallon metal buckets, ceramic wool , refractory cement) . I also got a 3-35 psi regulator and all that stuff, but I want to add the blower too . I still have to buy a thermocoupler , cover and PID. Thanks for posting the burner pics.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/704470-Forge-Assembly-WIP : I'll be studying this more thoroughly .
 
There is a lot of info in the PID forge sticky, as well as many great threads, like Silver_Pilate. He did a bang-up job with that build.
For some good blown forge plans, see the stickies.

In the perfect build, the blower should be a true forge blower. They may look like a cheaper squirrel cage unit, but they run different. They also cost more. Most forge and blacksmith supply companies sell them. To run a normal size propane forge, you don't need a big blower. I find 50-100 CFM more than enough for a HT forge.
Here are some from Centaur Forge.
http://www.centaurforge.com/Blowers/products/169/

As you can see from the above link, the Dayton style blowers that you can find on ebay for $30-50 will work. While not meant for the back pressure of a burner, they will provide air at enough pressure to do the job. Check the CFM before buying.
Here are a few that are the type people use.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ActiveAir-4...926?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f50699c6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dayton-Blow...443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb753e9a3

Placing a 2" gate valve in the air pipe from the blower allows you to control the volume while letting the blower run at full sped. ON a two-stage controlled forge, when setting the HI setting, run the blower at full speed and close the gate valve until the burner is running at the desired setting. In the LOW setting, use the speed control to slow the fan enough to have a proper flame with the lower gas output. This is a better arrangement than the two speed control method I posted in the PID Controlled Forge plans.



A flare allows the gas to drop its velocity and mix a bit more as it enters the chamber.
On a venturi burner, the gas velocity down the pipe is needed to make the venturi and draw the air into the tube. When it reaches the chamber it needs to drop in speed a bit or it may blow out the flame. The flare provides a larger volume of gas/air to pass through the last few inches at a lower pressure.....and that lowers the speed at exit.
On a blown burner, the the flare is not really an issue, as the gas is not injected and the air is under pressure. This is why a blown forge runs at much lower gas pressure.
You can grind a little flare on the inside of the pipe with a cylinder burr if you want.

Placing a mixing chamber in the burner tube really does the most good.
It is just two bell reducers with a 3" long pipe nipple between them. This allows the 1" burner tube to expand to 2.5" or 3" and mix the gas . Then it goes back to 1" and the velocity increases and it enters the forge chamber ready to burn. The mixing chamber should be about 4" from the end of the burner tube.
Kevin Cashen had a great section on his website where this is well explained.


FWIW, if you can get Sch 40 stainless pipe for the burner tube and Sch 80 stainless pipe for the flare, the burner will last a lot longer.
Use 1" pipe for burner tube, and 1.25" for the flare. A little grinding or hammering will make them force fit as you did on the burner you built. Grind a taper on the inside of both pipe ends to give it a smooth ..."flare". Even the small change in size from 1" to 1.25" will allow the gas to drop in velocity. If you can, weld them together after making any adjustments.

Last year, I made some flares from titanium tubing, but have not tested them yet. I used a drift to make the flare.
 
It'll take me a few hours to compute all that info, but basically on a blown forge you don't need a fancy z-burner etc since your supplying the fuel and air at your controlled rates ? Where should your ignition point be , just below the mixing chamber? can you use a hole and light with a bbq lighter or should I buy a bbq push button sparker that can have the wire carrying the current farther away. I don't want a hole dumping out all the work being done in the mixing chamber. Or have a small hole with a cap in the forge right next to the burner/air tube. If it's all in the sticky's I apologize and will do more research this is just off the top of my head after reading your post.


There is a lot of info in the PID forge sticky, as well as many great threads, like Silver_Pilate. He did a bang-up job with that build.
For some good blown forge plans, see the stickies.

In the perfect build, the blower should be a true forge blower. They may look like a cheaper squirrel cage unit, but they run different. They also cost more. Most forge and blacksmith supply companies sell them. To run a normal size propane forge, you don't need a big blower. I find 50-100 CFM more than enough for a HT forge.
Here are some from Centaur Forge.
http://www.centaurforge.com/Blowers/products/169/

As you can see from the above link, the Dayton style blowers that you can find on ebay for $30-50 will work. While not meant for the back pressure of a burner, they will provide air at enough pressure to do the job. Check the CFM before buying.
Here are a few that are the type people use.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ActiveAir-4...926?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f50699c6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dayton-Blow...443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb753e9a3

Placing a 2" gate valve in the air pipe from the blower allows you to control the volume while letting the blower run at full sped. ON a two-stage controlled forge, when setting the HI setting, run the blower at full speed and close the gate valve until the burner is running at the desired setting. In the LOW setting, use the speed control to slow the fan enough to have a proper flame with the lower gas output. This is a better arrangement than the two speed control method I posted in the PID Controlled Forge plans.



A flare allows the gas to drop its velocity and mix a bit more as it enters the chamber.
On a venturi burner, the gas velocity down the pipe is needed to make the venturi and draw the air into the tube. When it reaches the chamber it needs to drop in speed a bit or it may blow out the flame. The flare provides a larger volume of gas/air to pass through the last few inches at a lower pressure.....and that lowers the speed at exit.
On a blown burner, the the flare is not really an issue, as the gas is not injected and the air is under pressure. This is why a blown forge runs at much lower gas pressure.
You can grind a little flare on the inside of the pipe with a cylinder burr if you want.

Placing a mixing chamber in the burner tube really does the most good.
It is just two bell reducers with a 3" long pipe nipple between them. This allows the 1" burner tube to expand to 2.5" or 3" and mix the gas . Then it goes back to 1" and the velocity increases and it enters the forge chamber ready to burn. The mixing chamber should be about 4" from the end of the burner tube.
Kevin Cashen had a great section on his website where this is well explained.


FWIW, if you can get Sch 40 stainless pipe for the burner tube and Sch 80 stainless pipe for the flare, the burner will last a lot longer.
Use 1" pipe for burner tube, and 1.25" for the flare. A little grinding or hammering will make them force fit as you did on the burner you built. Grind a taper on the inside of both pipe ends to give it a smooth ..."flare". Even the small change in size from 1" to 1.25" will allow the gas to drop in velocity. If you can, weld them together after making any adjustments.

Last year, I made some flares from titanium tubing, but have not tested them yet. I used a drift to make the flare.
 
The air/gas mix should ignite as it enters the forge chamber. It should not be burning in the tube.
You can get all kind of fancy and put a pilot light at the rear port, or use a peizo igniter, but a BBQ lighter or a burning piece of paper towel in the chamber will light it just fine. Once up to temperature the forge will automatically re-ignite the gas if you are using a single stage PID control.
 
Stacy,
I'm a little confused as to what you are saying about the "mixing chamber" for a blown burner. All the ones I have seem use something like 2" pipe all the way to the end and is then reduced to 1" or so.

Is this what you are suggesting or did I understand you wrong.

blownburner.jpg
 
Exactly !.....with some other issues.

The blower manifold should come directly into the burner tube, and the gas should come from the side. This cuts down turbulence. The air manifold should be twice the size of the burner, so in your diagram it should be 2". It can have a 90 degree elbow as long as it is in the larger diameter piping ,and 3" or more from the gas inlet.
The gas fittings are normally 1/4".
The nozzlel tube from the mixing chamber can be longer than 4" if needed to make things fit the forge shell. Actually, about 2-3" from the outer shell is good.
Place the
 
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Do you mean a completely open 1/4" nipple for the gas inlet? That seems really big since my venture has a #59 hole in it.

So basically I can have a strait burner with the blower on one end going into a 2" pipe, then 4" later have the gas Inlet pipe, then widen to 3" and then down to 1" going into the forge.

Can I just drill a hole in the 2" pipe and put the gas inlet at a 45 degree angle. Then seal it with jb weld?


Off of the burner topic, if I use 1" of refractory cement and 3" of kaowool, will the cement liner weigh too much and squish the kaowool down?
 
Stacy, thanks for the info about heating up the chamber first, that might explain why my liner is falling apart so soon. Syvmn, I have that 2.5 inch threaded pipe on the end of my burner as a flare. I let it heat up and then shaped the hot end on a cone forcing it into a flare shape. It stutters occasionally but I believe I have other issues in my forge causing that.
 
On a blown burner there is no orifice. Just a 1/4" ( or whatever size) nipple/valve screwed into the manifold. You use a needle valve to regulate the gas flow.
Many people tap a hole through the air pipe and thread in a nipple. It can be sealed tight with gas line sealant or tape. I would not use just JB weld to attach the gas inlet through a hole, though. The last thing you want is the gas line falling on the floor spewing gas out .

I'll try and describe the path in regular words.
Starting at the blower:
BLOWER>GATE VALVE>2" AIR MANIFOLD>GAS ENTERS FROM SIDE> PIPE DROPS TO 1"> 2-2.5" EXPANSION CHAMBER> 1" BURNER TUBE>FLARE

In engineering terms:
BLOWER CREATED AIR VOLUME>
GATE VALVE RESTRICTS FLOW TO DESIRED VOLUME WHILE CREATING BACK PRESSURE ON BLOWER>
PRESSURE DROPS IN MANIFOLD LOWERING VELOCITY>
GAS ENTERS AIR FLOW AND STARTS MIXING WITH LOW PRESSURE-LOW VELOCITY AIR>
PRESSURE RISES AS GAS/AIR ENTERS RESTRICTION AND INCREASES VELOCITY>
PRESSURE DROPS SUDDENLY IN MIXING CHAMBER AND GAS/AIR COMPLETELY MIX INTO COMBUSTIBLE CONCENTRATION>
PRESSURE AND VELOCITY INCREASE AS IT ENTERS RESTRICTION AND PREVENTS FLAME FROM BURNING BACKWARD INTO THE BURNER TUBE>
FLARE INJECTS GAS/AIR IN AN EXPANDING AND LOWER VELOCITY STREAM>
HOT CHAMBER IGNITES AND COMBUSTS GAS/AIR
 
Will the 3" layer of kaowool compress under the weight of the 1" layer of refractory cement?

Also I have a 4" fan but I need to find a housing for it...any ideas?

fan4.jpg
 
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