Am I expecting too much - a ? about flippers

[Scrim]

Thanks for chiming in everyone -

Now let me elaborate - I've got the pushing down action OK though I did go through the lightswitch phase. The Southard started out easy with good snap to lock up but got less dependable needing more wrist assist. I assumed that the nylon/teflon washers housing the bearings was just wearing down. Was OK but as I have written elsewhere, was never great and nearly impossible to flip to full lock up from any position except blade down. Otherwise it was a solid knife with no blade play. I recently sold it.

My current flipper will flip open - using the push action that spketch describes - from pretty much any position and left handed or right handed IF I am standing up . Sitting down - requires that I really concentrate. I can only assume that when I am standing I am putting more body into it than the push with my index finger.

I get it that some knives require developing a technique but I am not typically a slow learner. I am athletic and I work every day with my hands as a woodworker. My coordination and muscle memory is plenty good enough to deploy a knife blade.

Secondly - the blade dropping out issue - it doesn't just fall out when I hold the knife blade down but if I give it a good snap of the wrist it flys out to full lock up faster than using the flipper. Is that a neat feature or a defect?

This particular knife does not have a screw pivot, rather the bearings and pivot post are trapped between the bolsters. There is no way to tighten - so I live with it as a feature or not ... :grey:

Yes - if I lived near any stores that sold a variety of knives I would just go shopping but Cabellas or other sporting good stores are not any where close or on my normal out of town routes. That's why I'm asking here. Even if I go shopping what can I expect? Again, am I asking too much. If I owned a Thorburn would I be asking the same questions?

Thanks much.

If you owned a Thorburn you'd be smiling from ear to ear understanding that his flippers open so fast and so smoothly...with barely a touch on the flipper tab. The guy's work is simply amazing in its precision...and beauty, IMHO. I don't know why his knives AREN'T the most expensive flippers on the market. They should be...but they're not.

A video on flipper smoothness (bearing pivot knives: Daboia, Shirogorov & Thorburn examples)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r-uvvcP1Bg

 

[The Aflac Duck]

If you owned a Thorburn you'd be smiling from ear to ear understanding that his flippers open so fast and so smoothly...with barely a touch on the flipper tab. The guy's work is simply amazing in its precision...and beauty, IMHO. I don't know why his knives AREN'T the most expensive flippers on the market. They should be...but they're not.

A video on flipper smoothness (bearing pivot knives: Daboia, Shirogorov & Thorburn examples)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r-uvvcP1Bg

I completely agree Scrim, nothing flips like a Thorburn! My L51 is my favorite and most used folder....simply amazing. I've noticed that secondary market prices for some Thorburns have gone up though. I saw an L51 just like mine for over $1,000 a couple weeks ago. And get this......IT WAS USED!

 

[RayseM]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I guess in the final analysis I am pretty particular. Didn't know that I was, at least in regards to knives. Getting more sophisticated in my knife awareness and it's beginning to cost me.

Thank you Scrim for the video link. Good and useful comparisons. I'm pretty certain a Thorburn is in my future.
I bet his blades don't fall out with a flick of the wrist.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

A couple of things I'd like to add.

Just an FYI @TexasWade, the Kuro IS an assisted opener. If it says "Speedsafe" on the blade it means assisted.

To the OP. I'm in total agreement on the Thorburn. I've got an L36 on double row bearings, and all it takes to make it fly open is to break the detent . I can make it so it doesn't open, but I REALLY have to try. Even then it only fails to open fully about 25% of the time. They are that amazing. I would recommend Andre to anyone.

In regards to your original questions. I am assuming that by "thumb stud" you actually meant the flipper tab on the back of the knife.
#1- Any good flipper should require only the use of the flipper tab to fully open the blade.
#2- The pivot should be loose enough to enable smooth movement of the blade. However, the lockbar detent needs to have a decent amount of tension so you can build up enough force using the tab to deploy the blade fully.

As an example of a "bad" flipper;
My first "flipper" was SOG Vulcan with the Axis style ARC lock. Because the lock also doubled as the detent, it made the detent quite weak. It never opened fully using the tab without an accompanying wrist flick. Using the thumb studs on the blades and the blade would deploy fine without the wrist flick. The Vulcan would also rocket open just by using the wrist flick.

I hope this helps with your issues
If I may ask. What is the custom you are having issues with?

Here' my Thorburn. Custom lefty L36
https://photos-6.dropbox.com/t/2/AABXpR0qWRG7nQ1V5Ty5tZTTOwVOkUwC3RcQLEbsPcu9Wg/12/405586300/jpeg/32x32/1/1445112000/0/2/2015-06-20%2012.14.52.jpg/CPyCs8EBIAEgAiADIAUgBygC/eKBuaiT-7kwqQznqbUubYgcmI8kKLW5VgaZc0b_MIZ8%2C8wYw6Zxv8MG3alRdQN9bPBkW1N_1Upa3KV-So3jI4EA?size=1280x960&size_mode=2

 

[jacobconroy75]

It takes practice to open a one hand opening knife with ease. I'm always amazed when I ask a non-knife person to try it at how hard it seems to them. So, keep on flipping and it gets easier and yes your Southard should open straight up and will once you've mastered the technique.

Lol, this reminded me of opening a Mnandi with one hand. When I bought it I thought people were crazy for paying that much to have a knife with no stud...but I can open it now.

 

[RayseM]

A couple of things I'd like to add.

Just an FYI @TexasWade, the Kuro IS an assisted opener. If it says "Speedsafe" on the blade it means assisted.

To the OP. I'm in total agreement on the Thorburn. I've got an L36 on double row bearings, and all it takes to make it fly open is to break the detent . I can make it so it doesn't open, but I REALLY have to try. Even then it only fails to open fully about 25% of the time. They are that amazing. I would recommend Andre to anyone.

In regards to your original questions. I am assuming that by "thumb stud" you actually meant the flipper tab on the back of the knife.
#1- Any good flipper should require only the use of the flipper tab to fully open the blade.
#2- The pivot should be loose enough to enable smooth movement of the blade. However, the lockbar detent needs to have a decent amount of tension so you can build up enough force using the tab to deploy the blade fully.

As an example of a "bad" flipper;
My first "flipper" was SOG Vulcan with the Axis style ARC lock. Because the lock also doubled as the detent, it made the detent quite weak. It never opened fully using the tab without an accompanying wrist flick. Using the thumb studs on the blades and the blade would deploy fine without the wrist flick. The Vulcan would also rocket open just by using the wrist flick.

I hope this helps with your issues
If I may ask. What is the custom you are having issues with?

Here' my Thorburn. Custom lefty L36

Yes - by "thumb stud" I meant the flipper which I actually use with my index finger and never my thumb :foot:.

Thanks for the extra info. And - I would rather not get specific as to the maker. My knife issues are likely just with this knife and so I don't want to raise a flag. His knives are beautifully designed and the fit and finish are perfect, so mine not working right is likely just an anomaly. Too bad, because otherwise it is an example of high craft.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

Yes - by "thumb stud" I meant the flipper which I actually use with my index finger and never my thumb :foot:.

Thanks for the extra info. And - I would rather not get specific as to the maker. My knife issues are likely just with this knife and so I don't want to raise a flag. His knives are beautifully designed and the fit and finish are perfect, so mine not working right is likely just an anomaly. Too bad, because otherwise it is an example of high craft.

To me, it honestly sounds like your detent could use some tuning.
If that is the case, really your best bet is to get in contact with the maker. Most that I've dealt with are more than accommodating when it comes to any issues a customer has with their work. Reputation means a great deal to a maker. So even if you are not the original owner, he would, in all likelihood do whatever he can to do right by you. Unless of course, your knife is a Hinderer. In which case, the detent is SUPPOSED to suck.

 

[Surfingringo]

As others have said, most flippers can be opened efficiently with the proper technique. I rarely have anything but high praise for Spyderco knives but the Southard you mention has very poor flipping action and requires a lot of technique. Add to that the (IMHO) awful ergonomics and it easily qualifies as my least favorite knife in the Spyderco lineup.

Now, if you don't want to bother with figuring anything out, there are a few knives that will flip out effortlessly no matter how you do it. Push, pull, preload or not....it just doesn't matter. They don't require an overly strong detent either. These knives just have such perfect action and physics that they are almost impossible to not flip open. The list of flippers that qualify for this category is very short. I have seen a few commented on here (the above mentioned Thorburn is one of them) but the only one I can tell you for sure is the Gayle Bradley Flipper.

So, no, your expectations are not unrealistic because there are a small number of knives that actually meet them. How much money do you have to spend to see those expectations met? I don't know but Gayle can meet them for about $600.

 

[jill jackson]

Reate makes knives that flip very well. In fact I have two and they are both excellent. I don't have 200 bucks in either one.

Here's the Horizon A, I have the B and it's one of my best flippers no matter the price.

[video=youtube;-87cNQJeNCc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-87cNQJeNCc[/video]

 

[Scurvy092]

It takes practice to open a one hand opening knife with ease. I'm always amazed when I ask a non-knife person to try it at how hard it seems to them. So, keep on flipping and it gets easier and yes your Southard should open straight up and will once you've mastered the technique.

That's very true. That's why I suggested the ZT0900. It's the only knife I have owned where non knife people (wife, mom, etc) could flip it open with ease every time. The knife is tall for it's side so you are more likely to keep your fingers off the lockbar compared to the much slimmer 0450.

 

[epetrillo]

I currently have 4 flippers. Three of them are Hinderers and they vary quite a bit in how they flip. The 3.5" spearpoint is actually a pretty good flipper with a good detent. I can flip this one easily in any direction using the pushbutton method. I can even flip it any direction but up with the light switch method. The xm24 spanto is also easy to flip pushbutton style but the big heavy blade deploys slowly compared to the others. My Eklipse use to be a decent flipper until I took it apart, cleaned it up and installed new washers. It can be problematic at times now but it seems to be breaking in all over again so I have high hopes for it.

If you want a flipper that rockets out with any technique and little effort look for a Curtiss F3. It feels like it's assisted even though it's not. The most anemic stab at the flipper has it locked up and ready to go. I haven't had it long and just can't get over how easy this thing is to flip.

 

[TexasWade]

...Just an FYI @TexasWade, the Kuro IS an assisted opener. If it says "Speedsafe" on the blade it means assisted...

I stand corrected! Had to borrow my boy's knife again for a minute. It is assisted up to about halfway out. Sorry to spread any misinformation.

 

[afishhunter]

The only flippers I have are a couple M-Tech "truck stop specials" and a CRKT Ken Onion "Ripple".
They all flip open with no wrist assist, and lock up tight, with no blade wobble.
If M-Tech/Master Cutlery can get it right on a sub $15.00 knife, I would think a company charging 10 times or more the price could get it right.
Oh, none of mine are assisted opening.

 

[jill jackson]

I currently have 4 flippers. Three of them are Hinderers and they vary quite a bit in how they flip. The 3.5" spearpoint is actually a pretty good flipper with a good detent. I can flip this one easily in any direction using the pushbutton method. I can even flip it any direction but up with the light switch method. The xm24 spanto is also easy to flip pushbutton style but the big heavy blade deploys slowly compared to the others. My Eklipse use to be a decent flipper until I took it apart, cleaned it up and installed new washers. It can be problematic at times now but it seems to be breaking in all over again so I have high hopes for it.

If you want a flipper that rockets out with any technique and little effort look for a Curtiss F3. It feels like it's assisted even though it's not. The most eneamic stab at the flipper has it locked up and ready to go. I haven't had it long and just can't get over how easy this thing is to flip.

My Hinderers are the opposite, the XM18 took some break in while the 24 came flipping like a demon. Both are easy to flip now, even blade going straight upwards. They just flip different than the bearing flippers and you have to follow thru more I've found. Instead of suddenly breaking free suddenly, they do best with more of a pushing motion where you follow the flipper with your finger.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

My Hinderers are the opposite, the XM18 took some break in while the 24 came flipping like a demon. Both are easy to flip now, even blade going straight upwards. They just flip different than the bearing flippers and you have to follow thru more I've found. Instead of suddenly breaking free suddenly, they do best with more of a pushing motion where you follow the flipper with your finger.

Bearings/washers have nothing to do with flipping action, unless it's an ill-fitted pivot assembly. The detent-fit and pressure the lockbar imposes on the tang are what make a flipper flip. That, along with the weight of the blade relative to the axis of the flipper tab too.

 

[jill jackson]

Right but my bearing flippers have a lot stronger detents, than the Hinderers do by design, they load up and suddenly release, the blade pops out suddenly. I have to push them on the top and front of the flipper, not just pull straight back. The Hinderers that is.

 

[SCWillson]

I had a bit of trouble opening my Spyderco Dice with my left hand (I'm right - handed) but a bit of practice and now I get full lockup every time.

 

[HST]

Just like shooting, practice makes perfect.

 

[UAB89]

Yeah I would agree flipping ability varies greatly depending on the knife.. Peoples options also differ on which knives are great flippers based on what they like.. Strong detent.. Weaker detent.. Push button or light switch.. Ect no I don't think your expecting to much I think you need to handle more flippers and decide for yourself what kind you like.. I own a sebenza, zt0450, Spyderco southard, and Kizer Gemini.. And I will tell you that all flip differently and require a different technique.. From my experience my southard is not the best flipper I own. Don't get me wrong it's a good flipper just not my favorite.. I would say the best out of the box flipper I own is the Kizer Gemini.. It is an excellent flipper with ceramic ball bearings it's increadibly smooth and takes almost no effort to deploy yet has a strong detent and can not be shaken out.. The Zt 0450 is also an excellent flipper! And probably my second favorite! It has a strong detent at first but after getting broken in and with practice it is an excellent option..

Another thing I have found is if a knife is dirty as in you let lent/grit build up in your pivot again the knife is not going to flip well.. I have also found that a small amount of pivot lube is essential for good action.. And different lubes work better for different types of pivots but that's definitely something to consider if your knife is not flipping as smoothly as you feel it should.. Hope this helps

 

[RayseM]

OK - as suggested by many - I have found and purchased a pre-owned, aka, somewhat affordable, Thorburn L42. Will post photos and gleeful comments sometime in the near future.

This has been an informative exchange. Thanks everyone.