Am I the only one who hates water/oil stones?

tiguy7 said:
I am not sure what those “wires” are for, but the bars with 3 screw holes should hold the stones in place. The trick to assembling the stones to the core is holding them in place with large rubber bands (for broccoli) while you put the retaining rods in place.
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One of the plastic bars broke over time, so I put the wires on to hold the stones down. I think I bought it 30 or so years ago.
 
tiguy7 said:
The Norton TriHone holds 3 stones partially dipped in mineral oil. The top stone can be squeegeed off with a rubber spatula to reduce the mess. The stones can be rolled through the bath to coat them with fresh oil. An auto parts cleaning brush will loosen the swarf which can then be rinsed (by rolling slowly) and squeegeed to present a fresh surface. The grit goes to the bottom of the bath where the stones can’t reach it. I wipe the blade with a rag after using each stone to prevent the transfer of coarser grit to finer stones.

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I don't fill mine with oil, I just add oil to the stone as needed and clean the reservoir when it starts to fill.
 
garry3 said:
I don't fill mine with oil, I just add oil to the stone as needed and clean the reservoir when it starts to fill.
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The older models actually have a “fill to” line. If you keep the oil at this level, all 3 stones can be bathed in clean oil without coming in contact with old swarf. The rig is always ready to go. The mess is minimal because all excess oil is pushed back into the reservoir with a spatula, and the working stone is relatively oil free.
 
tiguy7 said:
The older models actually have a “fill to” line. If you keep the oil at this level, all 3 stones can be bathed in clean oil without coming in contact with old swarf. The rig is always ready to go. The mess is minimal because all excess oil is pushed back into the reservoir with a spatula, and the working stone is relatively oil free.
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Yep, I've tried them both ways. It will just come down to personal preference.

BTW, I did learn that the currant parts are not all interchangeable with the older models. Most notable the center sections.
 
Guy McVer said:
Maybe "hate" is too strong of a word. Let me explain.

Because they require oil or water, I find using that type of whetstone to be messy and wasteful. I also don't like the cleaning and maintenance requirements. Lastly, I find them to be really expensive for what they are. Ceramics are best in my opinion because they're generally cheap, you can use them dry, and you can clean them with an eraser.* A lot of people also like using diamond plates, but I don't like the fact that they create diamond dust. That's probably just me, and I do admittedly own and use various diamond coated products.

I appreciate that some people really enjoy using waterstones/oilstones and may even find the process relaxing.

What are your thoughts?

* Side note: I just found out that some people also use erasers to clean their waterstones and oilstones.

edit: corrected the topic title and post to fit the correct definition of whetstone. This topic is specifically about waterstones and oilstones vs. other types of knife sharpening objects which do not require oil or water.
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There are a lot of people that enjoy the process and find it relaxing. The stones used are a big part of that especially for those that are into the natural stones.

I sharpen at my desk and on the couch or in a chair when I watch TV, in the shop, in the kitchen ect. With both oil and water, in hand and with holders or just with the stone setting on a surface. I manage to not make a mess by using a rag under the stone and cleaning the stones after use which is usually just rinsing them off. There is no dust when water or oil is used. I leave no trace or I would be divorced by now.

I guess I could use spittle and not waste oil....
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Sharpening itself, and cleaning the stones used for sharpening, can be as complicated or as simple as one makes it out to be, in their mind. I've found it easier and more worry-free, long-term, to lubricate stones that are proven to work better as a result, and also proven easier to maintain in the best working condition as a result of lubricating them. Stone life and efficiency of cutting will be extended by lubricating the stone.

Most ceramic hones, due to the light touch-up nature of how they're used most of the time, can be maintained pretty well when used dry, using an eraser to clean them after each sharpening session (or even multiple times per session). But for the heavy loading that occurs when ceramics are used for heavier polishing, an application of 2 or 3 drops of mineral oil goes a long way toward keeping the stone cutting well, even as fairly heavy swarf accumulates. That's due to how the oil will prevent the swarf from clinging to the surface, almost in a galling-like fashion, as happens when the stones are used dry. With just a little bit of oil, the swarf is essentially pushed aside as the honing occurs and can simply be wiped away with a rag. Sintered ceramics in particular, like the Spyderco hones, become exponentially slower when they begin to clog even a little bit. So, even if one can stay ahead of that with some eraser-scrubbing along the way, it'll have to be done very, very frequently to keep the hone working at all, in heavier grinding or polishing jobs.

Very coarse and very porous stones, like most oilstones (natural or synthetic) can't be cleaned fully to the depth of the pores with something like an eraser. Swarf will still accumulate below the eraser's reach and will still clog the stone to some degree over time. And it'll clog FAST (in minutes) when used dry, for any heavy grinding. And as with any lubrication used in friction-inducing work on a stone, the lubrication reduces wear as well, on the stone's grit. A stone that was designed and intended to be used with oil will almost never need any heavy scrubbing or cleaning between uses, and can simply be 'cleaned' by a light application of clean oil at the finish of the session, rubbed a bit into the surface to lift the swarf and wiped or blotted away with something like a microfiber towel. If maintained this way, the stone may never need any additional cleaning.

And decent diamond plates don't generate enough diamond dust to be of concern. Any dust that might be created, be it either loose grit or swarf, would be better controlled and contained with a little bit of lubrication, which will prevent the dust from getting airborne. And diamond plates are stupid-simple to clean in the same manner as an oilstone, used with a couple or three drops of oil on the surface. It keeps swarf from clinging, which means it can simply be wiped away with a microfiber towel. And the little bit of oil on the hone can be washed away when finished, with some dish soap & water - takes maybe 2 or 3 minutes. Alternatively, I sometimes use a spritz of Windex on a diamond hone in the same manner to clean it, wiping it off with the microfiber towel. All of this keeps the diamond plate working 'as new', when maintained this way. I DO sometimes use my diamond hones dry for some light tune-ups on the fly, done in maybe 2-5 passes per side. No big deal there, as loading/clogging issues go. But when I'm setting new bevels, I'll still put a few drops of oil on the diamond plate to keep the swarf from getting in the way. For cleaning's sake, that additional 'mess' might take an extra half-minute to clean up, as opposed to cleaning a dry hone.

Edited to add:
All the above, of my preferences and how & why I came to them, are the result of trying all of my hones/stones both with and without lubrication over the span of years. I've gone down the same path as well in specifically testing the differences in using either oil or water on stones. So, it's not like the conclusions I've reached are based on assumptions or short-term observations. I try to keep an open mind and I do revisit these things at times to see if I still come to the same conclusions or not. When I first started sharpening, I also felt the 'mess' aspect was something not worthwhile to me. But that was when I was doing all of my sharpening at a very light-duty, touchup scale, long before I started attempting tasks like reprofiling or setting new bevels on knives. For the light-duty work, one can get by without using lubrication on a stone and not notice much of an obvious difference. But for heavier work, the shortcomings in dry grinding vs. the improvement in performance coming with the extra 'mess' of wet sharpening kind of jump up and can't be ignored.
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I have stepped away from using stones dry ,,,(meaning oil stones) I have tried simple green and it didn't work for me. I just purchased some Norton honing oil, and i will give it a try when it arrives. I am in the OCD boat of keeping my stones spotless. That can be done on something like a fine India, when its used dry because it doesn't take much to achieve the edge you want if its already sharp etc, but oil is still needed to lift the dry swarf at least all of it, in the past i used WD-40 to lift the swarf when using the oilstones dry, then a trip to the sink with a degreaser and hot water soak to clean them . So by using a mineral oil while sharpening 'wet' can they keep their stones spotless, if one goes to the sink with hot water and a degreaser? Or will there still be accumulated metal in the pores?


I have bought vintage Norton especially the Berh manning ones, you can get a NOS that was used once with a lot of grinding with no lubrication, you can tell they're new because they are flat, but it seems the 8x2x1 fine Indias (Behr manning) are usually 15/16" instead of 1". My quess is because they are fired longer and they may shrink?? Anyways these stones are caked i metal swarf and very difficult to clean, i have found even 31% muradic acid will eat that impossible to remove embedded swarf, but it can take a week long or more soak, (in full strength hydrochloric muradic)and still there's trace's of embedded swarf. BTW - 31% full strength hydrochloric/muradic acid will not harm a vetrifed aluminum oxide/corundum stone in any way , because i have done many that way soaking and it can still take a week or more and still have metal swarf in the pores, after neutralizing no ill effects were done with the acid on these really hard stones. One just has to use with caution and common sense. And carefully neutralize the stone. Has anyone else tried any other strong acids to eat up all the metal particles? I would think that the 31% stuff would eat all of them out in a acid friendly sealed plastic container in about a week, but sometimes it all doesn't come out, i mean its strong stuff when you take the lid off you can see fumes of gas coming out of the jug.
 
Slim7 said:
I have stepped away from using stones dry ,,,(meaning oil stones) I have tried simple green and it didn't work for me. I just purchased some Norton honing oil, and i will give it a try when it arrives. I am in the OCD boat of keeping my stones spotless. That can be done on something like a fine India, when its used dry because it doesn't take much to achieve the edge you want if its already sharp etc, but oil is still needed to lift the dry swarf at least all of it, in the past i used WD-40 to lift the swarf when using the oilstones dry, then a trip to the sink with a degreaser and hot water soak to clean them . So by using a mineral oil while sharpening 'wet' can they keep their stones spotless, if one goes to the sink with hot water and a degreaser? Or will there still be accumulated metal in the pores?


I have bought vintage Norton especially the Berh manning ones, you can get a NOS that was used once with a lot of grinding with no lubrication, you can tell they're new because they are flat, but it seems the 8x2x1 fine Indias (Behr manning) are usually 15/16" instead of 1". My quess is because they are fired longer and they may shrink?? Anyways these stones are caked i metal swarf and very difficult to clean, i have found even 31% muradic acid will eat that impossible to remove embedded swarf, but it can take a week long or more soak, (in full strength hydrochloric muradic)and still there's trace's of embedded swarf. BTW - 31% full strength hydrochloric/muradic acid will not harm a vetrifed aluminum oxide/corundum stone in any way , because i have done many that way soaking and it can still take a week or more and still have metal swarf in the pores, after neutralizing no ill effects were done with the acid on these really hard stones. One just has to use with caution and common sense. And carefully neutralize the stone. Has anyone else tried any other strong acids to eat up all the metal particles? I would think that the 31% stuff would eat all of them out in a acid friendly sealed plastic container in about a week, but sometimes it all doesn't come out, i mean its strong stuff when you take the lid off you can see fumes of gas coming out of the jug.
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It's normal and very likely, that even well-cleaned, vitrified-bond stones (like India) will still show some embedded swarf with more use over time. On a Fine India stone, the surface color will darken and begin to look a little less 'orange' and more grey with use, as some of the swarf remains embedded. But as long as the stone keeps cutting steel effectively, I wouldn't worry too much about trying to keep the stone looking spotlessly new. If the stone gets reconditioned / resurfaced with some abrasive grit like SiC or loose diamond, etc, that could leave it looking cleaner & more 'new' in appearance. But I wouldn't feel the need to do it simply to keep the stone looking 'new'. It's more appropriate for flattening very dished stones or for restoring cutting action to very worn, heavily-clogged & dirty stones that can't otherwise be adequately cleaned. Otherwise, too-frequent or unnecessary resurfacing of the stone will greatly accelerate erosion of the grit over time, effectively wasting a lot of the stone's useful life.

Personally, I'd also be careful with extreme acid cleaning of these stones, if the only purpose is to keep them looking 'as new'. One thing that does work pretty well is Bar Keepers Friend powder, mixed with some water. It does use a mild dilution of oxalic acid, which is known to dissolve iron and iron oxides. It won't do any other harm to the stones themselves though. It's very good for cleaning up ceramic hones, for example. And it can also do pretty well on other stones (natural, AlOx) as well, with little or no risk to the stone itself.
 
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I use diamond stones for knives, generally the 1200 grit DMT. If I want a finer finish, I will follow with a Spyderco fine or ultra fine. I don’t care for my water stones, and prefer to avoid flattening a stone. I don’t generally want to use oil, but I have liked Marvel Mystery oil and Norton oil on India stones, the Norton oil preferably thinned with a little kerosene.
If I need to sharpen wood working blades, I won’t let a diamond stone near them. I use a Lilly White Washita with water, followed by a hard Arkansas - either a translucent or black. I don’t like to mangle the edges or backs of wood working blades with diamond stones. I have the Norton ceramic stones, and they are flatter than the Spyderco Ceramics. They are better suited to finishing plane irons or chisels, but do not come in a medium version.
 
Guy McVer said:
Maybe "hate" is too strong of a word. Let me explain.

Because they require oil or water, I find using that type of whetstone to be messy and wasteful. I also don't like the cleaning and maintenance requirements. Lastly, I find them to be really expensive for what they are. Ceramics are best in my opinion because they're generally cheap, you can use them dry, and you can clean them with an eraser.* A lot of people also like using diamond plates, but I don't like the fact that they create diamond dust. That's probably just me, and I do admittedly own and use various diamond coated products.

I appreciate that some people really enjoy using waterstones/oilstones and may even find the process relaxing.

What are your thoughts?

* Side note: I just found out that some people also use erasers to clean their waterstones and oilstones.

edit: corrected the topic title and post to fit the correct definition of whetstone. This topic is specifically about waterstones and oilstones vs. other types of knife sharpening objects which do not require oil or water.
Click to expand...

When you only rely on your opinion and the things YOU find easiest then you discard learning and knowledge to make informed decisions. Like saying diamond plates make diamond dust... that statement couldn't be more false. Lots of metal swarf? yes, but you are not kicking up diamonds and especially not to the level of making visible dust.

As for cleaning, you still have to clean ceramics (diamond too) and most have found Barkeepersfriend to be best. So now instead of oil or water you are using a chemical (acid) to clean your stones. You also have to consider stone life, like plated diamond stones ceramic stones only have one layer of abrasive that works on the steel and over time that abrasive will become dull. This is something waterstones and oil stones don't have to worry about because the abrasive either refreshes itself or can be refreshed. So, technically speaking, the diamond and ceramic hones are always going dull and performing just slightly worse than the last time they were used. Eventually, the difference will be so big it will cause difficulties in sharpening that will go unnoticed as a stone problem because you will think its just you having a hard time... I know this because I've experienced it.

There is a give and take with everything in sharpening, I once said waterstones were stupid and now I have shelves of them, a water bucket full of them and they are the first stone I reach for. Not because I like to make a mess but because they are often the best option for the task at hand, that's not to say I don't have a small collection of oil stone, diamond stone, ceramic stone, natural stones, etc too and employ them as needed for various sharpening tasks. With that.. my point to all this is let knowledge guide your sharpening journey and avoid a closed minded opinion.
 
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