Am I the only one who prefers external stop pins?

O

o4tg

Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
715
I just don't understand why people use internal stop pins. It significantly reduces the strength of the blade, and in my experience they aren't as smooth and wear out faster. In searching the forums, it seems like 9 times out of 10 when a folder blade breaks, it's an internal stop pin design.

Can someone list the benefits of an internal stop pin over external?
 
o4tg said:
I just don't understand why people use internal stop pins. It significantly reduces the strength of the blade, and in my experience they aren't as smooth and wear out faster. In searching the forums, it seems like 9 times out of 10 when a folder blade breaks, it's an internal stop pin design.

Can someone list the benefits of an internal stop pin over external?
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IT has a lot to do with looks i think.
 
XiaolongJackson said:
They can also potentially get in the way of cutting/sharpening.
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Could you expand on that?

Also, it seems they would be more expensive to make and harder to fit than an external stop pin. In my unexpert opinion, a frame captivated external stop pin would be the toughest stop pin design (all things equal). It also adds stability since the liner/frame lock and stop pin are further apart, rather than having the stop pin right next to the pivot geometry.
 
You are correct on all points, o4tg. It is more complicated, more expensive, and MUCH weaker, all by design.
 
How often do we see blades breaking at the pivot? I think it's fairly inconsequential, most of us will never use a knife hard enough to notice the difference, or break a blade at the pivot. Personally I can't tell the difference in any way except the sound they make when opening. The main benefit I see is more design freedom, when you have an internal stop pin you don't have to design the flipper around the stop pin, it's small but it can make a big difference.

That's just my opinion though, your's will vary. :)
 
Unless it's a flipper or a backlock. I don't see the point in them. I think they're alot better for flippers than those useless thumbstud stop pins though. It would seem like a nice way to make a backlock much stronger too.
 
It doesnt really matter to me as long as it works how its supposed to, but I do prefer the looks of an internal stop pin.
 
I like them on my Knockout, Utilitac and Mini-Commander. They inspire a bit more confidence, but that's totally my opinion.
 
fzla226 said:
I think they're alot better for flippers than those useless thumbstud stop pins though. It would seem like a nice way to make a backlock much stronger too.
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I think you meant "weaker". Instead of a small milling on one side of the tang which doesn't focus stres on a thin piece of metal, there is a huge trough cut through the tang so that the pin can focus stress on a narrow bridge right next to the pivot. Metal breaks at the weakest point, i.e. the point closest to the focus of stress that presents the least amount of resistant material.
Every Spyderco I'd ever seen broken cracked through the thumb-hole... until now.
The thumb-stud stops place stress in a small hole through the blade, usually in the thick ricasso, which is still innately weaker than a stop-pin in steel liners rather than the blade.

How much difference will it make in practice? Well, none until the threshold of stress is reached, same as for different blade grinds. But that doesn't mean that one i not innately weaker than another. And when weakness is combined with difficulty of manufacture, which is usually associated with increased cost to the consumer, why pay more for less ?
 
Every one of my folders has a thumb hole of some sort, I hate hate hate thumb studs. I wish I didn't, it would open up alot of options, but it's my system and I'm sticking to it. So I kinda have to have internal stop pins.
 
Yo Mama said:
Every one of my folders has a thumb hole of some sort, I hate hate hate thumb studs. I wish I didn't, it would open up alot of options, but it's my system and I'm sticking to it. So I kinda have to have internal stop pins.
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Internal stop pins are inside the blade, hidden near the pivot. External stop pins can either be thumb studs, or a pin inside the frame that engages the exterior of the spine side tang instead of riding inside of it. This is a non stud external stop pin, which is in my eyes a no brainer. Unless the knife is incredibly narrow at the pivot area, there's no reason not to use the superior external stop pin.



No compromised integrity of the blade, it's fully encapsulated by the frames, and the anchor points are at the two furthest possible points keeping more of the tang fully supported during centrifugal force.
 
I have NEVER in my life seen a knife that broke in the pivot area. Ever. But then again I use my knives to cut things. I dont pry, hammer, baton, throw or chisel with my knives. As such I have never even broken so much as a tip except once I dropped an open balisong over concrete. But that was my fault not the knife. IMHO using an internal stop pin is a way to prevent limitations of artistic expression with a knife design. And as long as 1. The knife is constructed properly with proper heat treating and 2. that the knife is used for what a knife is intended to be used for there is no reason an internal stop pin knife should be viewed as inferior. Now that I think of it I have actually seen more external stop pins that are mounted in the blade stock come loose and fall out than I have seen broken blades at the pivot.

o4tg said:
Internal stop pins are inside the blade, hidden near the pivot. External stop pins can either be thumb studs, or a pin inside the frame that engages the exterior of the spine side tang instead of riding inside of it. This is a non stud external stop pin, which is in my eyes a no brainer. Unless the knife is incredibly narrow at the pivot area, there's no reason not to use the superior external stop pin.



No compromised integrity of the blade, it's fully encapsulated by the frames, and the anchor points are at the two furthest possible points keeping more of the tang fully supported during centrifugal force.
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Not really true. It completely depends on the design of the knife. I have seen numerous external stop pin designs where they actually had less metal in the pivot area than most internal stop pin designs because to get the knife to look a certain way and retain external stop pins metal had to be removed. But lets take variables entirely out of the equation and pretend that all tang areas of blades were identical and external stop pin designs were consistently stronger. By what margin? and is there any practical application for that additional strength given a knife's intended purpose? In other words as long as your using a knife as a knife how strong does it need to be? Because if strength is your only motivation when buying knives nearly every knife design in existence in inferior to what is possible if you take aesthetic qualities out of the loop. The real question is just how strong does something need to be until the negative impacts of its looks and ergonimics outweigh any benefits of the added strength? I just think its a bit unfair to label something inferior when the supposed superiority of your preferred design has no real world application except for people who may choose to abuse their knives and use them for purposes they are not intended. If anyone has a question of just how much metal can be removed from the pivot area of a knife without it being fatally compromised (as long as again its being used as a knife) is a Protech godson or godfather. Both of those being autos that have remendous spring pressure throwing the blade.
 
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chiral.grolim said:
I think you meant "weaker". Instead of a small milling on one side of the tang which doesn't focus stres on a thin piece of metal, there is a huge trough cut through the tang so that the pin can focus stress on a narrow bridge right next to the pivot. Metal breaks at the weakest point, i.e. the point closest to the focus of stress that presents the least amount of resistant material.
Every Spyderco I'd ever seen broken cracked through the thumb-hole... until now.
The thumb-stud stops place stress in a small hole through the blade, usually in the thick ricasso, which is still innately weaker than a stop-pin in steel liners rather than the blade.

How much difference will it make in practice? Well, none until the threshold of stress is reached, same as for different blade grinds. But that doesn't mean that one i not innately weaker than another. And when weakness is combined with difficulty of manufacture, which is usually associated with increased cost to the consumer, why pay more for less ?
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Yes it would make that part of the blade weaker, but it would also relieve a lot of stress on the lock and transfer stress from the lockbar, it would also easily get rid of vertical play prevalent in backlocks. I'd think with a larger blade and cutouts fairly close to the pivot you wouldn't be giving up much strength in the blade and be gaining a lot in the strength and tightness of the lockup. Thumb stud stop pins are just a bad idea imo. An internal pin does a good job by itself and allows you to keep the lines of the blade clean without something that might interfere with cutting. I'm not sure how you'd get a much more expensive manufacturing cost from adding an internal stop pin to a lockback, maybe in the small parts themselves but that's pretty small. You wouldn't really need to mill out anything in the blade, the holes could just be cut when the blade blank is laser cut or water jetted out.
 
PURPLEDC said:
I have NEVER in my life seen a knife that broke in the pivot area. Ever. But then again I use my knives to cut things. I dont pry, hammer, baton, throw or chisel with my knives. As such I have never even broken so much as a tip except once I dropped an open balisong over concrete. But that was my fault not the knife. IMHO using an internal stop pin is a way to prevent limitations of artistic expression with a knife design. And as long as 1. The knife is constructed properly with proper heat treating and 2. that the knife is used for what a knife is intended to be used for there is no reason an internal stop pin knife should be viewed as inferior. Now that I think of it I have actually seen more external stop pins that are mounted in the blade stock come loose and fall out than I have seen broken blades at the pivot.
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Search around on the forums, as you haven't looked hard enough.

And what do you mean? You say "external stop pins that are mounted IN the blade stock" but that by definition is not an external stop pin. Most external frame mounted stop pins would require the frame to separate to come loose. If that happens, the stop pin will be the least of your worries and internal or external will make no difference.
 
o4tg said:
Search around on the forums, as you haven't looked hard enough.

And what do you mean? You say "external stop pins that are mounted IN the blade stock" but that by definition is not an external stop pin. Most external frame mounted stop pins would require the frame to separate to come loose. If that happens, the stop pin will be the least of your worries and internal or external will make no difference.
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maybe you could point me in the direction of these broken knives and the supporting evidence that they were not abused? And what I mean is there are knives where the stop pin actually is in the blade itself (many striders) yet not in the pivot area. In fact there are only a handful of knives where the stop pin is in the blade stock and hidden. 9 times out of 10 even when the stop pin is a hidden design they are still mounted in the handle with a slot carved out of the blade instead of slots in the handle slabs and/or liners. Regardless I wasnt speaking of hidden stop pins mounted in the blade stock. Some knives have a dual purpose blade stops that also function as thumbstuds and others are soley intended as blade stops for the open and closed position. Some designs even have 2 stop pins like on the ZT0560 which the one in the blade is for the open position and the one in the handle is for when it is closed. Im sorry im just not convinced that it matters as long as the knife was being used as it was intended. And if they do break I would be willing to bet it isnt so much the fact that it is due to being an internal design but that somehow the materials were compromised by poor heat treatment or just a bad piece of steel. Who knows, maybe I didnt look hard enough. But If I have to put this much effort to find evidence of what your speaking of im inclinded to think its not as big of a problem as I think you would like to believe it is. At least not for guys using their knives to cut things. Todd begg I believe is the first guy to actually utilize the hidden stop pin design and countless makers have followed suit and in over 10 years I havent seen a single broken blade. Sure you say they exist but I could probably find pics of broken fixed blades that have more metal than either where the blade meets the handle. But that doesnt mean it was a design flaw.
 
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PURPLEDC said:
maybe you could point me in the direction of these broken knives and the supporting evidence that they were not abused? And what I mean is there are knives where the stop pin actually is in the blade itself (many striders) yet not in the pivot area. In fact there are only a handful of knives where the stop pin is in the blade stock and hidden. 9 times out of 10 even when the stop pin is a hidden design they are still mounted in the handle with a slot carved out of the blade instead of slots in the handle slabs and/or liners. Regardless I wasnt speaking of hidden stop pins mounted in the blade stock. Some knives have a dual purpose blade stops that also function as thumbstuds and others are soley intended as blade stops for the open and closed position. Some designs even have 2 stop pins like on the ZT0560 which the one in the blade is for the open position and the one in the handle is for when it is closed. Im sorry im just not convinced that it matters as long as the knife was being used as it was intended. And if they do break I would be willing to bet it isnt so much the fact that it is due to being an internal design but that somehow the materials were compromised by poor heat treatment or just a bad piece of steel. Who knows, maybe I didnt look hard enough. But If I have to put this much effort to find evidence of what your speaking of im inclinded to think its not as big of a problem as I think you would like to believe it is. At least not for guys using their knives to cut things. Todd begg I believe is the first guy to actually utilize the hidden stop pin design and countless makers have followed suit and in over 10 years I havent seen a single broken blade. Sure you say they exist but I could probably find pics of broken fixed blades that have more metal than either where the blade meets the handle. But that doesnt mean it was a design flaw.
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Just a week ago a guy posted in the spyderco section "southard fail" dudes blade snapped at the stop pin slot. Either way I don't care if it has one or not, if the design is something I like I buy it... pretty simple
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ade-failure-with-pics?highlight=southard+fail
 
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here is picture .
and Yes I dont like that idea , it will be fine if you don't abuse your knife but whats going to happen in that bad situation then you need all what you can get from that knife ?
and I dont like ball bearings as well , but it fun to play with it .
i-d5fGT3B-XL.jpg

.
this is how I like blade stop
i-FZfRFpm-XL.jpg

thumb stud and blade stop working together .
 
Jeez, always something to obsess over. Why would someone put so much force on their knife that the stop pin would break? I'd suggest a fixed blade.
 
Jastab said:
Just a week ago a guy posted in the spyderco section "southard fail" dudes blade snapped at the stop pin slot. Either way I don't care if it has one or not, if the design is something I like I buy it... pretty simple
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ade-failure-with-pics?highlight=southard+fail
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I think that was anomalous more than anything, he said it was fairly middling pressure that did it. I think it could be more due to the heat from laser cutting around the smaller areas effecting the heat treat. I remember reading those Buck Hoodlums had problems with breaking at a notch cut out partially because of the temper being affected by the blade being laser cut. Either way, the lock should be fail in that direction before the blade.
 
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