Am I wasting my money on a small hatchet

Here's my brutally honest reaction to the tops wolf pax: WTF is that thing? It's neither fish nor fowl, aimed tacti-cool, next best gizmo, survival crowd. I'd rather have a big blade than that thing, and I'm not a big blade guy. Here is why: a small axe, or hatchet, works well because most of the weight is concentrated in the wedge-shaped head. The Tops pax combines a thin knife blade with an axe shape, giving you the disadvantages of both, and the advantages of neither.

Get a decent hatchet: Fiskars, Husqvarna, or spend $$ on at Gransfors or Wetterlings if you want to learn how to use a hatchet. They are very useful not just for chopping and splitting, but for carving and shaping as well.

BTW, this "knife is safer because I can baton it" is only half the story. You can baton a hatchet as well (works great), as long as you use wood, and not a metal hammer.
 
raindog101:

You're right about skill. In fact that's the main reason I started this topic. I have almost no experience with a hatchet, that's why I posed the question. How much does a small hatchet really out chop a large knife... or does it? I know that a knife is not going to out chop a full sized axe, but I'm also wondering if there's a sweet spot... as in if a small-ish hatchet chops so well that it justifies the additional weight. So far, the consensus seems to be no: that axes/hatchets get smaller, you're getting diminishing returns.
 
I bought a sog fast hawk a while back. I'll say it's decent at chopping, but not any better than my Ontario sp48. Plus, the small head makes it less convenient and more awkward to chop with
 
tigercasual said:
raindog101:

You're right about skill. In fact that's the main reason I started this topic. I have almost no experience with a hatchet, that's why I posed the question. How much does a small hatchet really out chop a large knife... or does it? I know that a knife is not going to out chop a full sized axe, but I'm also wondering if there's a sweet spot... as in if a small-ish hatchet chops so well that it justifies the additional weight. So far, the consensus seems to be no: that axes/hatchets get smaller, you're getting diminishing returns.
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Excellent points. I'm not a fan of how most true hatchets (14" handle length or shorter, head weight of 1.0-1.25#) chop. So if I anticipate a lot of chopping, I'll choose a larger axe as my tool. This is not often the best choice when travel is involved, as larger axes can be weighty. But for most of my backcountry uses (I try to keep the load fairly light, but still allow room for the appropriate tools, within reason), I will forgo anything larger than a hatchet, and this for splitting. I can use a saw for sectioning fairly easily and quickly, and saws are LIGHT compared to axes. So for me, the debate on hatchet vs large knife is not about chopping, but how well they can split. For me, the hatchet wins, as I've been using these types of tools since I was a boy helping my pappy to split kindling, and later larger rounds for our woodstove and 2 fireplaces when I was growing up. I didn't chop, that's what chainsaws are for!
 
tigercasual said:
raindog101:
as in if a small-ish hatchet chops so well that it justifies the additional weight. So far, the consensus seems to be no: that axes/hatchets get smaller, you're getting diminishing returns.
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It's simple physics; the hatchet has most of the weight concentrated behind the edge. You may get talked into a large blade and use it for a while. Eventually, you might try a hatchet and draw your own conclusions. Let me say most folks on BF are biased towards big blades; you may hear differently if you ask elsewhere. As for a hatchet being more dangerous, yes, you need to think about what you are doing, but that goes for all edged tools.
 
I have a GB Wildlife and a Small Forest Axe, these are so sharp "out of the box" it could almost replace a knife.
In certain environments (Boreal/Taiga) if I could only have one I would take the axe.
 
If you are okay spending that kind of money, I would go with a grandflors bruks or Wetterlings hatchet or small axe. Basically, if you want a hatchet, get a hatchet rather than some hybrid thing. It will cut better. You would probably just be as happy with a basic Estwing hatchet and they are very good. An even less expensive alternative is a Fiskars hatchet or short axe that you can pick up at home centers. Essentially what it boils down to is that you need some experience and I would not choose something like the Tops to gain that experience. Generally speaking the GBs and Wetterlings are about the best hatchets and axes available today, but you pay for them. I don't think you need to take that large of step to learn if you like a hatchet.

If you don't get my drift, I would not buy spend hard earned money on the Tops you are looking at. A knife would be better.

As for my personal preferences, I like a hatchet IF I need to pound things like stakes or whatever on the flat side. Trapping would be an activity that I would choose a hatchet over a "knife". For basic chopping, I would rather carry a short stiff machete such as the Condor Pack Golok or Village Parang. They have a number of them in the same size range; choose what you think you like best.
 
I'd vote for a large knife if it were me. The weight is around what a Junglas or CS Gurkha is, though they're longer. Either of those knives is more versatile and would likely out chop that Tops Pax on wood, and slice light stuff as well. But, if you want the pax, get it. I'm not an axe guy, but it's kind of cool for a small axe.

ETA: What 22-rimefire said. There are tons of short machetes which chop quite well. The short Ontarios in particular are great camp knives/choppers.
 
RemyKaze said:
Nope. Wetterlings Bushman Axe. The Ray Mears is cool but that straight handle called to me. I was not disappointed a bit. This thing is a beast, and heavier than you would think. A great chopper AND splitter design.

How ya been, Raindog? Shoot me a PM sometime.
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Haha...whoops! I guess I got my celebrities mixed up eh? Ray Mears, Les Stroud, who cares? I was actually looking at picking that one up too. I have no excuse for my idiocy! If you haven't posted a review on that bad boy, I'd love to hear your opinions. I'm not convinced I need a 'tweener axe, but that one would have to be in the mix, along with a GB SFA, and a Wetterlings Backcountry axe. I dig the straight handle idea, just not sure if it would feel right to me. I'll shoot you a PM later.
 
raindog101 said:
Haha...whoops! I guess I got my celebrities mixed up eh? Ray Mears, Les Stroud, who cares? I was actually looking at picking that one up too. I have no excuse for my idiocy! If you haven't posted a review on that bad boy, I'd love to hear your opinions. I'm not convinced I need a 'tweener axe, but that one would have to be in the mix, along with a GB SFA, and a Wetterlings Backcountry axe. I dig the straight handle idea, just not sure if it would feel right to me. I'll shoot you a PM later.
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Trust me, it's worth it. Has some weight to it, though. I like the curved handles of all the Wetterlings and Gransfors Bruks, but the design of the head on this axe is probably the most well thought out that I have ever seen. It's just thin enough to chop like a demon, but has enough of a wedge shape for easy splitting. Plus, it is so comfortable choking up on the handle behind the head, something that wouldn't apply to a curved handle. Strangely enough, it carves as well as something like a Mora. It compared favorably to a 510 anyway, for the size.
 
There is a good reason that the ax has survived the test of time. Even the old time bushcrafters recommended a small hatchet/ax. People like Nessmuk carried smaller fixed bladed knives and a small ax even though large knives were available (in fact Nessmuk disparaged large knives for fieldcraft). You can baton with an ax and they are very durable. You are not likely to break the head as you could a large knife blade. The force of an ax is directed into a narrower confine and it will out chop a large knife, generally, if it is well designed and not one of those mall ninja things. I did a side by side chopping with a small hatchet, a kukri, and a heavy machete, cutting down small trees, making firewood, etc. The ax was less tiring for the amount of work and chopped better and deeper. The ax experts will tell you that you need to select the proper ax design for the job, however, as the heads are made for specific purposes. If you have the wrong ax you will be unhappy.

As for defense and offense, it is interesting, if my memory is correct, that Roger's Rangers were advised to finish their fight with an ax, not a large knife. During the Vietnam war, it was the ax that was brought back to hand to hand fighting, not the large knife.

Each has its place, but there is my two cents worth backed by long and continuing history.
 
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This is the best all around knife I have found so far. It is a Bontoc From Winkler knives with a 7" blade. It chops like an axe it skins deer great does all the wood processing you could want. It is trend now to see who can do what with a small knife. Mountain men I have read about had both a big knife and a small knife and an axe. Every book I'v read has most pioneers and explores with multiple edged tools and weapons. Small patch knives and big butchering knives fighting knives and and clasp knives. There is no one tool for all. If your going to to be splitting a lot of wood take a good two handed axe. If its just dead fall to burn or working on your skills take a big knife a pocket knife and a saw there is not much you cant do with those three.
 
My personal 2 cents:
While I do own two Hawks, I don't take them camping/hiking.... The major factor for me is the "weight" of not just the content in/on my pack... but what I'm wearing as well.
Camping/hiking I bring a 'Survive! GSO 4.1' knife, a folding Japanese Silky Gomboy saw and a folding knife, that's all I need.
After walking/climbing for several miles.... I don't feel like I'm carrying a brick in my pack/on my belt if I had an Axe/hatchet/hawk from the added weight.

As MathewSB said in post #6: "they can be dangerous" especially if not used correctly.
Looking at the 'Tops Wolf Pax 2' you are interested in, it appears to have a very sharp 'Beard'.... that to me would not be needed for camping/hiking and could potentially yield a nasty cut/slice not needed in the woods

My two hawks are strictly for breaching into or out of potential situations as well as for defensive/offensive purposes.

I own a Browning Black Label 'Shock n' Awe' (under $68.) and an RMJ 'Jenny Wren' which is more costly.
My 2 cents: travel as light as possible, look into a Silky Gomboy hand saw and a knife you can baton with that has a pommel end for hammering/crushing.

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tigercasual said:
raindog101:

You're right about skill. In fact that's the main reason I started this topic. I have almost no experience with a hatchet, that's why I posed the question. How much does a small hatchet really out chop a large knife... or does it? I know that a knife is not going to out chop a full sized axe, but I'm also wondering if there's a sweet spot... as in if a small-ish hatchet chops so well that it justifies the additional weight. So far, the consensus seems to be no: that axes/hatchets get smaller, you're getting diminishing returns.
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Axe safety is not any more tedious than other tools like knives and hoe's. Just crouch down a bit when you vertical chop so any mistake will bury the hatchet into the ground instead of your shins. There's plenty of thing people do to stay safe just like not all knife people handle their blades the same.

As far as what type to go with I'd say something that is at least 3/4 of your arm length. For me that is a minimum of 20" handle length; I feel any smaller just doesn't have enough swing to take advantage of the weight an axe head brings. Smaller handle lengths just don't give enough of an advantage over big knives for me.
3/4 also is not too cumbersome to carry if I need to. Full size axes stay in the car or shed.
 
raindog101 said:
Different loadouts for different expectations:

moderate wood processing: Bahco Laplander for sectioning, Fiskars X7 for splitting, Mora for finer work (carving, food prep) and general use
high-volume wood processing: Fiskars X15, Condor Varan, Mora, and multitool (mostly for the file, makes maintenance of the axe a bit handier)
minimal wood processing: Ontario 12" Cutlass machete, Vic Farmer

Typically, I don't do much camping/hiking where I have to process a lot of wood, so the moderate wood processing tools are the most I typically carry on my back. So I'll carry a hatchet over a big knife, as it seems to be just as versatile ( I can carve and do finer tasks with it relatively easily) and outperforms a big knife in a few tasks (splitting and chopping). It depends a lot on how skilled you are with your various tools. I've used axes/hatchets quite a bit, so I can wring some serious performance out of them when I need to. I don't feel quite as capable with a large knife, mostly because I've not put in the time to get good with one. I'm still learning with the machete, but it seems like a good tool, and may turn in to my all-arounder soon (I'm from the north woods, but now live in the desert, so machetes work really well in this environment).
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I am of like mind bud. I have/use most of the tools you mentioned. But for just fun farting around I'll crawl around with a little Wetterlings hatchet and an Izula 2 or whatever. As you said there are so many variations of tool/environment/personal preference that influence our choices. I just find a small hatchet to be handy for splitting small kindling up quickly, or using the back of the head to knock ice off of wood etc. A small hatchet weighs nothing, takes up little space or is belt carried. And the mass of the tool is concentrated. Finally, I just love the aesthetics of the tool.
 
22-rimfire said:
If you are okay spending that kind of money, I would go with a grandflors bruks or Wetterlings hatchet or small axe. Basically, if you want a hatchet, get a hatchet rather than some hybrid thing. It will cut better. You would probably just be as happy with a basic Estwing hatchet and they are very good. An even less expensive alternative is a Fiskars hatchet or short axe that you can pick up at home centers. Essentially what it boils down to is that you need some experience and I would not choose something like the Tops to gain that experience. Generally speaking the GBs and Wetterlings are about the best hatchets and axes available today, but you pay for them. I don't think you need to take that large of step to learn if you like a hatchet.

If you don't get my drift, I would not buy spend hard earned money on the Tops you are looking at. A knife would be better.

As for my personal preferences, I like a hatchet IF I need to pound things like stakes or whatever on the flat side. Trapping would be an activity that I would choose a hatchet over a "knife". For basic chopping, I would rather carry a short stiff machete such as the Condor Pack Golok or Village Parang. They have a number of them in the same size range; choose what you think you like best.
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I use these. I also keep a Gransfors Bruks American Felling Axe around for serious tree felling and a Fiskars X27 splitter when we need large quantities of large logs for the fire.

The carpenters hatchet belonged to my late grandfather and I rehung it on an old axe handle that belonged to my late father (sentimental value there for both). The longer handle makes it perfect for me around camp and it works great on tent stakes and spikes needed in trees, etc. The Gransfors Small Forest axe is what my son prefers around camp most of the time. As a teenager, it works well as an all around chopper and has room to use two hands if needed. That one and the Felling Axe are the best axe/hatchet I've ever owned and I have a few other axes and hatchets as well. The SOG was gift and we use it for fun around camp and throw it at trees and logs, etc. It also works well just throwing it in the toolbox of the truck; inexpensive and no worries.
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Please don't consider buying a vintage Buck rendering axe. Uh uh. Don't. I need them all. Yup. I do.

 
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