Amazing steel vs Amazing heat treat?

What would you rather have in an apocalyptic situation? A more simple carbon steel or a more complicated alloy.
 
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Wanimator said:
What would you rather have in an apocalyptic situation?
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Both amazing steel and amazing heat-treat, of course. There's really no need to choose between one or the other unless your budget is so limited that you're stuck with dollar-store junk... in which case you're not getting either.
 
Thankfully this issue will probably never come up. As I said earlier, the fighting in WWII Burma was about as close to an end of the world scenario as you can get. Re-supply was by iffy airdrop and the expected (and later proven) casualty rate was like 80%. Those guys didn't have the option of exotic steels, but said being able to sharpen a knife easily in the field was worth it's weight in gold. I'll take their word for it and choose basic carbon any day for an actual long-term survival scenario. For me, that even works better in the yard:)
 
I choose CPM-3V with aerospace-quality professional HT at 58-62Rc for my personal apocalypse knives.
 
I feel it mostly depends on final use. For rope cutting carbides are usually where it is at but in the kitchen it may be much different.

There is no be all end all to knife performance but I believe heat treat is more important than steel choice. For example I'd put a Fikes knife up versus a supersteel any day of the week. Edge geometry is coming into play here too...

I recently had a professional Chef write me, he told me he has been using an O1 Chef knife I made since last August and has never sharpened it. He has stropped the edge and it is hair popping sharp. It is hard to pull that off with any steel! O1 must have been a great choice, I believe the fine carbide structure it forms has worked well in this situation.

Different steels can be pushed in different ways too. A fine edge may last longer with a simple steel but a coarser edge with more alloy. I have been working a lot with D2 lately and it can be pushed hard into the super performance category...

I have tried just about everything steel wise by the way. I was not impressed with O1, 5160 or D2 until I developed a heat treat regimen that works for me... now those steels amaze me with performance.

I think the answer depends on application and many more variables.
 
james terrio said:
I choose CPM-3V with aerospace-quality professional HT at 58-62Rc for my personal apocalypse knives.
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This would be my choice also, lower end for larger knives, higher end for smaller ones. But you already knew that, didn't you? :D I can't imagine a scenario where I wouldn't also have my hone, but in any event, I'm not worried about sharpening on a rock either, this steel responds very well and sharpens easily, IMO.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
Edge geometry is coming into play here too...
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Yes, thank you for pointing that out! Edge and overall geometry is always hugely important... in fact, most important. A terrible, heavy, uncomfortable, clunky knife with a thick edge won't perform worth a hoot, no matter what it's made of..


Too often we think of a bipod (two "legs" made of steel and HT), when the fact of the matter is, geometry cuts. Alloy selection and HT only determine how long a well-designed blade will keep cutting. So it's really a tripod, or triumvirate of factors.

We could easily complicate this illustration further, and accept geometry as the center- or ridge- pole of our "tepee or lean-to of knife design", and consider things like alloy selection, HT, weight/balance, comfort, ease-of carry, ease-of-sharpening vs. low maintenance, and so on as the walls built upon/around that foundation... which is precisely why it's so incredibly fascinating and fun to make knives for a living... but I digress.

sodak said:
This would be my choice also, lower end for larger knives, higher end for smaller ones. But you already knew that, didn't you? :D I can't imagine a scenario where I wouldn't also have my hone, but in any event, I'm not worried about sharpening on a rock either, this steel responds very well and sharpens easily, IMO.
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Exactly.

Having said all that, if I didn't have my first preference, and "only" had a low-alloy knife/knives, I certainly wouldn't just give up. Simple alloys with top-notch HT can clearly perform very well in scary situations. The upshot is, they just require more care and maintenance. :thumbup:
 
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I think it's important to point out that we don't have to choose. One of my all-time favorite knives is still a Buck Vanguard in 420HC. It's just one of the best designed knives ever, IMO, for MY hand. And I'm a guy who really doesn't care much for stainless steels, but the Vanguard is just outstanding in so many ways, I love it.
 
james terrio said:
Right on, same here. :thumbup: I used to be a hardcore fanatic about simple carbon steels, for all the usual reasons. Then I opened my mind, tried other alloys, and made up my mind based on performance.

[...]

Also true, especially regarding your comments on price. There's no way on Earth I could make a $20 machete out of Elmax or CPM-3V... the barstock alone costs more than that, before I even get to work. But if someone's interested in serious performance and willing to cover the costs, I'll put an Elmax or 3V machete at 58 or 60Rc against one made of 1075 at 54Rc all day, every day... ;)
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I wouldn't call myself a fanatic about simple carbon steels, personally -- they're just an economical choice that can perform quite well when done right, and for me performance-per-dollar ratio is a big factor. I don't shy away from stainless and/or higher end steels whatsoever other than under the criteria for selection I detail below. :):thumbup:

I would rather have, under most circumstances, multiple different tools at my disposal with good steel and great geometry and heat treatment than a single tool with more premium steel. As someone who operates a homestead I have a different set of needs than many of today's common users, and on a routine basis make use of multiple knives, machetes, scythes, hay knives, axes, hatchets, brush axes, saws, shovels, spades, billhooks, and hoes. I could easily blow the entire sum I spent on them all on a single high-end custom, but then even though my performance within the range of that one tool would be boosted it would not be in equal proportion to how much I spent on it, and my overall range of capability would be limited. The best tool in the world matters not if you don't have it in your possession. Hence I like to optimize my purchases based on the point where my spending has maximized what II get for the money and diversify my tool selection rather than putting all of my eggs in one (or a comparatively limited number of) basket(s).

Like I said, I have nothing against high end steels so long as the geometry and heat treatment are equally optimized for the tool, but monetary efficiency and functional diversification are the philosophy I choose to ascribe to. For instance, most vintage tools that are so consistently lauded by folks (mistakenly, as you well know) for having "better steel than today" are really praising the fundamental design and form of the tool rather than material quality. The material may have been the best for what they had at the time, but the steel of the 1850's-1940's is nothing compared to what we have today. What so many manual tools of today truly lack (with exception) is experience/performance based design. If I'm going to make a sacrifice in the specifications of a tool to render it more affordable the first place I would cut would be material choice (to a reasonable level only) followed by unit cost reduction of requisite manufacturing processes. Knives like Opinels, are good examples of this--inexpensive for what they are because of efficient process whereby a combination of standardized parts, simple but good materials, and efficient geometry combine to give a knife that may not be as high in edge retention as, say, a Benchmade 940, but will outcut it easily due to all of the fewer dollars that went into its manufacture having gone almost entirely into optimizing the balance of functional features for maximized performance at its price point.

Functional diversification is not unlike keeping a diversified portfolio of stocks. It reduces your risk of encountering circumstances where the lack of a functionally appropriate tool greatly impairs your ability to perform a necessary task. Now, if you have high requirements for steel selection on a functional basis, that means that you really would be spending your money most efficiently in order to attain that given tool, because the needs of your tasks define the "floor" of what is considered an effective purchase while your finances and willingness/ability to wait on a purchase to save up money for the purchase set the upper range. Sometimes that window is very large, sometimes small, sometimes with a lower position on the spectrum, sometimes at the upper. The greater your budget and the less diverse and more demanding your functional criteria are, the higher end you may go on a given purchase.

All of that said, an S7 machete would be fun to have. And sometimes fun is part of your criteria for the purchase. :D

I do indeed send my blades to Peters for HT, as do many other custom makers and manufacturers. It's costly and it takes extra time. I assure you, I would do it myself if I thought I could get anywhere near their results on a consistent basis without a huge investment in time and money. You are flat wrong that they aren't pushing the envelope of truly excellent HT. Along with the Bos shop, these are the cats who set the bar so very high for knife-specific HT. Give Brad Stallsmith (the guy in charge of Peters' dedicated cutlery division) a call... tell him I sent ya... ask him about it.
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Peters' does GREAT work. I concur.
 
Actually in my opinion we need all of these.

  1. Good Steel
  2. Good Heat Treatment and Tempering
  3. Good Design
  4. Good Blade Geometry
  5. Good Edge Geometry

To have a knife that provides the best performance for the task that it was designed for.

And the above would be tailored to the what the knife was ment to do.

It really isn't all that hard or complicated to figure out from a pure performance perspective.

Where things get complicated is when price comes into the equation, that and opinions..... And that's were things go sideways....... And reality goes out the window......

To have the best knife with the best overall performance for the task all we have to do is use the highest performing materials with all 5 things taken into count on the list above, yes it really is that simple..... It really is.....

Taking all of that into count:

  1. Knives perform because of the 5 things in the 1st list.
  2. There aren't any magic heat treatments, there are only properly done ones or poorly done ones.
  3. Knives don't perform because people want them to or perceive them to, they perform because of the 5 things on the list above.
  4. No amount of Hype, Myths, Marketing, nor magic will make a knife perform.


Now if a knife is missing any of the above 5 things in the 1st list it won't perform at the highest level that it could because something was sacrificed for whatever reason it may be...
 
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Ankerson said:
Actually in my opinion we need all of these.

  1. Good Steel
  2. Good Heat Treatment and Tempering
  3. Good Design
  4. Good Blade Geometry
  5. Good Edge Geometry

To have a knife that provides the best performance for the task that it was designed for.

And the above would be tailored to the what the knife was ment to do.

It really isn't all that hard or complicated to figure out from a pure performance perspective.

Where things get complicated is when price comes into the equation, that and opinions..... And that's were things go sideways....... And reality goes out the window......

To have the best knife with the best overall performance for the task all we have to do is use the highest performing materials with all 5 things taken into count on the list above, yes it really is that simple..... It really is.....

Taking all of that into count:

  1. Knives perform because of the 5 things in the 1st list.
  2. There aren't any magic heat treatments, there are only properly done ones or poorly done ones.
  3. Knives don't perform because people want them to or perceive them to, they perform because of the 5 things on the list above.
  4. No amount of Hype, Myths, Marketing, nor magic will make a knife perform.


Now if a knife is missing any of the above 5 things in the 1st list it won't perform at the highest level that it could because something was sacrificed for whatever reason it may be...
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Total agreement, although I would modify the statement regarding heat treatment slightly to say that the heat treatment must not only be executed properly, but also selected properly. Given that one may use the same steel for multiple purposes, different protocols will be used to achieve certain optimal characteristics in the specific application, and if you choose a less than ideal protocol but then execute it flawlessly it'll be a flawless heat treatment, but out of ideal specification for the holistic criteria of the design. I realize this is probably what you were saying in more simplistic terms, but I feel it's one of the larger factors that are really at play when people talk about a knife or tool having "really awesome heat treatment". :):thumbup:
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Total agreement, although I would modify the statement regarding heat treatment slightly to say that the heat treatment must not only be executed properly, but also selected properly. Given that one may use the same steel for multiple purposes, different protocols will be used to achieve certain optimal characteristics in the specific application, and if you choose a less than ideal protocol but then execute it flawlessly it'll be a flawless heat treatment, but out of ideal specification for the holistic criteria of the design. I realize this is probably what you were saying in more simplistic terms, but I feel it's one of the larger factors that are really at play when people talk about a knife or tool having "really awesome heat treatment". :):thumbup:
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I was trying to keep it really simple and straight forward so people could understand. :)
 
I agree with Ankerson's five rules. They serve to differentiate between intended uses. Didn't make much since to over complicate it when things should really be a given.
 
Ankerson said:
Actually in my opinion we need all of these.

  1. Good Steel
  2. Good Heat Treatment and Tempering
  3. Good Design
  4. Good Blade Geometry
  5. Good Edge Geometry

To have a knife that provides the best performance for the task that it was designed for... Now if a knife is missing any of the above 5 things in the 1st list it won't perform at the highest level that it could because something was sacrificed for whatever reason it may be...
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Absolutely right on. What we consider "good" today, is really quite good! Better than it's ever been before. Those criteria will help almost anyone find or build a knife that works really well for them. :thumbup:

However... for me, the really fun stuff begins when we get into...


Excellent Steel
Excellent Heat Treatment and Tempering
Excellent Design
Excellent Blade Geometry
Excellent Edge Geometry
Excellent Handle Design and Comfort in Use
ExcellentSheath Design and Comfort in Carry
Excellent Pride of Ownership and Exclusivity
Excellent Resale Value...

etc, etc.


To have a knife that provides the very most exemplary performance for the task that it was designed for... and well beyond.
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That stuff costs money, though... often pretty serious money. That's simply not worthwhile to most people, and that's OK.
 
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