Ammo casing questions

Uncle Timbo

Uncle Timbo

Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
5,300
Please take me back to school on the different types of casings. (It's been a looong time) I know brass is great but the others confuse me. Please break it down in dummy terms. I'm looking at .45 ACP. Here they are:
  • Naturally--Brass
  • Aluminum
  • Nickel plated
  • Steel
While I'm at it, what's the diff between the blunt nosed FMJ's vs. the round nosed FMJ's?
And if I could ask one more question, I know +P is considered a "hot load" but could someone dummy that one down for me?
 
Firstly, they are CASES. Cartridge CASES. Casings are what sausages are stuffed in to.

Secondly, the purpose of the case is two fold: 1-to hold the components of a cartridge (case, primer, powder, and bullet) together, and 2 - most importantly to seal the breach as it expands in the chamber ahead of the breach block/bolt. Brass is the best case material for this.

The difference between blunt and round nose FMJs is the blunt nose bullet is truncated. The purpose is for use in tube magazine fed center fire rifles so one cartridge does not crush the primer of the cartridge ahead of it in the magazine thereby firing the cartridge ahead of it.

+P and +P+ indicates cartridges loaded so as to create greater chamber pressures with a steeper pressure curve thereby increasing the bullet's muzzle velocity in a given firearm. They are also known as over-pressure loads and can be dangerous to the firearm and the shooter. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute's (SAAMI) official +P are generally 10% higher than the published standard maximum pressures for any given cartridge. SAAMI doesn't publish standards for +P+ and won't due to the inherent danger of such cartridges. If you are going to shoot any +P cartridges, ensure your firearm is rated for it, inspect your firearm carefully and often, and expect more rapid wear. A steady diet of +P will beat up your firearm.

+P+ should not be shot and should always be avoided as there are simply no industry standards for it. Personally, I avoid both +P and +P+, and I would never recommend anyone shoot +P+ in any firearm.
 
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Kootaga13 said:
Please break it down in dummy terms:
  • Naturally--Brass
  • Aluminum
  • Nickel plated
  • Steel
Click to expand...

Brass is best for most uses because it will "flow" during firing to match your chamber and is reloadable. For cartridge cases it is a more expensive material if you are just plinking and leaving your "brass" behind.

Nickel plated brass is basically just like brass with better corrosion resistance for those of us that leave our ammunition in the foot locker for ~3 decades or live near salt water. You also won't get "corrosion fingerprints" if you handle your ammunition and don't wipe it down.

Aluminum is okay for non-reloadable ammunition. It can fracture when fired in a loose chamber and the extractor can yank the rim off and leave the fired case in the chamber. Fine for plinking on a river bank, a poor choice for the nightstand.

Steel while serviceable has most of the disadvantages of all the other case materials. It doesn't "flow" being stiff and rigid, corrosion can be an issue though polymer coatings can deal with that and, it can be hard on some pistols since the case itself is so hard (look at chambered and fired rounds - every scratch, gouge, groove, bend, etc. protected your firearm from excessive wear - steel on steel is not nice).

Kootaga13 said:
While I'm at it, what's the diff between the blunt nosed FMJ's vs. the round nosed FMJ's?
Click to expand...

Round nose cartridges will function in a finicky pistol when JHP and flat nose cartridges won't.

When you shoot someone or something, the wound channel on a flat nose bullet imparts more energy into the target in most instances and has a larger wound channel starting earlier than a round nose FMJ.

Kootaga13 said:
And if I could ask one more question, I know +P is considered a "hot load" but could someone dummy that one down for me?
Click to expand...

Bigger BANG, more recoil, more flash, more noise, more energy and velocity. Think of it like a 38 Special vs. a 357 Magnum.

Berdan primers are not reloadable, at least not by most people in the USA. Corrosive primers aren't an issue with modern ammunition but, with old surplus ammunition it can be one of many potential problems.
 
Above advice is very good. Do not ever make the mistake of being careless about types of powders and charges when reloading or you stand to lose a hand or an eye very quickly. Read the books and follow their advice to a 't'. 45ACP is an old round with relatively low pressures and deviating from spec is a recipe to blow yourself up.
As to "brass" try to begin with all-the-same make once-fired, whether plated or plain and stay the H away from aluminum and steel.
 
Sid Post said:
Bigger BANG, more recoil, more flash, more noise, more energy and velocity. Think of it like a 38 Special vs. a 357 Magnum.
Click to expand...
Not really a good way of looking at +P loads. Those are two distinctly different cartridges both with their own distinct cases, standards, and load data. .357 Magnum loads are hotter than .38 Special +P loads. Anyone loading .38 Special to .357 Magnum pressures is playing with danger.
 
leghog said:
Not really a good way of looking at +P loads. Those are two distinctly different cartridges both with their own distinct cases, standards, and load data. .357 Magnum loads are hotter than .38 Special +P loads. Anyone loading .38 Special to .357 Magnum pressures is playing with danger.
Click to expand...

Yes, the case lengths are different but, for a novice curious about standard versus plus "P" loads it is a fair analogy IMHO. The ballistic effects of standard versus plus "P" ammunition in the same case is very similar to a parent case tweaked for safety so it can be loaded to higher pressures.

For safety, especially around less knowledgeable people, cartridge cases are tweaked to avoid blow ups with heavier than spec charges of powder. Take the 45-70 as one example; why are factory loads so weak and why was the 450 Marlin created? The 450 Marlin offers what a modern rifle and 45-70 could safely be. A belt was added to ensure this over pressure ammunition could not be loaded into a very old 45-70 rifle that lacks the strength to safely fire it. To ensure the 2” version of the .458 Winchester Magnum (wildcat) couldn't be loaded and fired the belt was made larger. So while not as direct or obvious an analogy, the 450 Marlin is essentially a plus "P" 45-70 in practical terms.
 
Reloading books often give three different 45-70 loads , depending on the rifle. Be careful. But the 45-70 loaded to the higher velocity kicks at both ends . The standard load works for most ranges and most animals .It doesn't perform from velocity.
Note that a cartridge like .40S&W has NO +P load .Companies that claim it are giving you hype.Not needed for a .40 anyway.
38+P loads are usefull for the very light weight .357 revolvers ,easier to handle .
The Brass case is usually a 70Cu-30Zn which for some reason they call 'cartridge brass' !
 
Thank you everybody. I am not going to get into reloading. If something could go wrong, it would go wrong with me. I have no desire.
As far as the +P goes, why would anybody want to use them? Under what circumstances? Mind you I'm just idly curious. I look at ads from our local toy store and I was always wondering.
Lastly, I'll just stick with brass. Sounds like the least of any problems. What would a 50 count bag of empty brass CASES be worth? Should I save them or is it like saving pop cans?
 
Kootaga13 said:
As far as the +P goes, why would anybody want to use them? Under what circumstances?
Click to expand...
Defense

What would a 50 count bag of empty brass CASES be worth? Should I save them or is it like saving pop cans?
Click to expand...
50 cases for what cartridge?

I'd suggest just giving them to one who does reload. 50 cases just isn't very many to a reloader.
 
I really didn't mean just 50 cases. And it would be for .45 acp. I thought if I knew what 50 were worth I could do the math on more?
 
Kootaga13 said:
As far as the +P goes, why would anybody want to use them? Under what circumstances? Mind you I'm just idly curious. I look at ads from our local toy store and I was always wondering.
Click to expand...

For plinking and general target practice there is no real reason to buy them. They came about to make existing firearms better "manstoppers".

Kootaga13 said:
Lastly, I'll just stick with brass. Sounds like the least of any problems. What would a 50 count bag of empty brass CASES be worth? Should I save them or is it like saving pop cans?
Click to expand...

Brass or Nickeled Brass are both your best options, especially if you are not a real high volume shooter and you are not financially strapped to the point where the minor price difference is significant to you.

For brass costs check out Midway USA, Widner's, or any of the other major reloading sales sites. For actual value, I'd say you are looking at ~5 cents a case plus a little for a good box. As mentioned above, for a box or two here and there, give them to a fellow shooter who reloads and would appreciate them.
 
Kootaga13 said:
I really didn't mean just 50 cases. And it would be for .45 acp. I thought if I knew what 50 were worth I could do the math on more?
Click to expand...
I have 5,000-10,000 .45ACP cartridge cases. Didn't spend a cent for them. Some I've loaded and shot so many times you can no longer read the head stamps. Since they're straight walled cases, they fail when the case mouths finally split from belling and crimping. They don't lengthen in firing, so head separation isn't an issue.
 
Kootaga13 said:
I really didn't mean just 50 cases. And it would be for .45 acp. I thought if I knew what 50 were worth I could do the math on more?
Click to expand...

If you have 10 boxes or so, I wouldn't be surprised if you got $25~30 for them (plus a little for cheap shipping). One of the gun forums I'm on works that way with used brass, partial boxes of reloading components, etc. It seems like there is always someone wanting some extra brass for common calibers like the 45ACP, .223/5.56, 308, 30-06, etc.

Rigby and Nitro Express brass sells for several dollars each and there is always someone looking for some even at $5 give or take for each individual case. Even though 45ACP is pretty common and there is lots of it around, there is a market for bulk buys. Heck, I'm a buyer if you ever have some to sell. I'd much rather have brass from someone like yourself versus range "sweeps" with lots of culls.
 
Mr. Leghorn, I say son, you're in a league all by yourself. 10,000? WOW!

Mr. Post, we may be chatting someday. You never know.

Thank you all...
 
5,000 to 10,000 .45ACP cases is nothing. I know a guy with a pallet loaded with cases of .22LR cartridges in his garage. I try to keep about 20,000 .22LR cartridges on hand (and that's only 4 cases).

Why does every one call me leghorn?
 
Sorry Mr. leghog. Simple misunderstanding. Have you ever heard of Foghorn Leghorn the legendary rooster in the cartoons? I say, have you?
 
+P and +P+ simply put have more gun powder in the case which makes the bullet go faster. Faster bullets have more energy and that can give a slight advantage to a rather weak pistol bullet.

In the proper pistol they are safe to shoot but like any "hot" loading it will take a toll on the pistol. Our military uses 9mm +P ammo and the +P 124gr JHP is a very common defensive loading for the 9mm. You want a scary 9mm round look up "9mm Major".
 
Jason B. said:
+P and +P+ simply put have more gun powder in the case which makes the bullet go faster. Faster bullets have more energy and that can give a slight advantage to a rather weak pistol bullet.

In the proper pistol they are safe to shoot but like any "hot" loading it will take a toll on the pistol. Our military uses 9mm +P ammo and the +P 124gr JHP is a very common defensive loading for the 9mm. You want a scary 9mm round look up "9mm Major".
Click to expand...
Be extremely careful with +P+ as there are no standards, and it's unlikely SAAMI will ever publish any.
 
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