An Essay on Britian's Gun Control - By JOYCE LEE MALCOLM

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This in today's Tulsa World. I thought y'all would be interested since we've talked about this subject fairly often.
This is one of the best articles if not the best that I've ever seen that gives a real reason to fight gun control.
I don't know how long the link will be good for so here's the story cut and pasted.

All copywrites to the Tulsa World and Financial Times.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/OpinionStory.asp?ID=020630_Op_g3selfd

6/30/2002
Gunless . . . 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the United States, where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.
KELLY KERR / Tulsa World file
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Self-defense is the offense in Britain
By JOYCE LEE MALCOLM


For the best part of a century, public safety in England and Wales has been based on the theory that fewer guns would mean less crime; that weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding posed a danger. Disarming them would lessen the chance of arming criminals.

The Police Review, an independent magazine for Britain's police, summed up the matter 20 years ago: "There is an easily identifiable police attitude towards the possession of guns by members of the public. Every possible difficulty should be put in their way. No documentation can be too rigid, no security requirement too arbitrary, which prevents guns coming into the hands of criminals." Advocates of gun control worldwide have praised the resultant model, in which some of the toughest firearms regulations of any democracy have been credited with producing a low rate of violent crime.

But there are two problems with this claim. When guns were easily available, England and Wales had an astonishingly low level of armed crime. A government study for the years 1890-1892, for example, found only three handgun homicides, an average of one a year, in a population of 30 million. The study noted that the murderer and the victim in the 1890 homicide were foreigners. In 1904 there were only four armed robberies in London, then the largest city in the world.

A hundred years and many gun laws later, the BBC reported online in January that England's firearms restrictions, including its 1997 ban on handguns, "seem to have had little impact in the criminal underworld." Guns are virtually outlawed, and, as the old United States' slogan predicted, only outlaws have guns. And worse, they are increasingly ready to use them.

Five centuries of growing civility ended in 1954. Violent crime has been climbing ever since, and armed crime -- with banned handguns the weapon of choice -- is now described as "rocketing." In the two years following the ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent. From April to November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose 53 percent.

In the course of a few days last summer, gun-toting men burst into a court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. On New Year's Day, 2002, a 19-year- old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief trying to steal her mobile phone.

Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against people in inner cities increased 91 percent. And from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the United States, where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police.

This sea change in English crime is indicative of government policies that have gone badly wrong. Gun regulations have been part of a more general disarmament based on the premise that people don't need to protect themselves because society will protect them. It will also protect their neighbors. Those who witness a crime are advised to "walk on by" and let the professionals handle it. First, government clamped down on private possession of guns; then it forbade people carrying any article that might be used for self-defense; finally, the vigor of that self-defense was to be judged by what, in hindsight, seemed "reasonable in the circumstances" according to the 1967 Criminal Justice Act.

The 1920 Firearms Act, the first serious British restriction on guns, required a local chief of police to certify that the potential gun owner had a good reason for owning a weapon and was a fit person to have it. All very sensible. Parliament was assured that the intention was to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals and other dangerous persons. Yet, from the start, it was far more restrictive, and Home Office instructions to police -- classified until 1989 -- periodically narrowed the criteria.

At first, police were instructed there would be a good reason for someone to have a revolver if a person "lives in a solitary house, where protection against thieves and burglars is essential, or has been exposed to definite threats to life on account of his performance of some public duty." By 1937 they were to discourage applications to possess firearms for house or personal protection; and in 1967 were informed that "it would never be necessary for anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person."

These changes were made without public knowledge or debate. Their enforcement has consumed hundreds of thousands of police hours. Since 1997, handguns have been banned. Proposed exemptions for handicapped shooters and the Olympic team were rejected.

in even more sweeping was the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act that made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted, or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or excuse." Carrying something to protect yourself was branded antisocial. Any item carried for possible defense automatically became an offensive weapon. Individuals stopped by the police and found with such items were guilty until proven innocent.

During the debate in the Commons, an MP from Northern Ireland told his colleagues of a woman employed by Parliament who had to cross a lonely heath on her route home and had armed herself with a knitting needle. A month earlier, she had driven off a youth who tried to snatch her handbag by jabbing him "on a tender part of his body." Was it to be an offense to carry a knitting needle? The attorney general assured him that she might be found to have a reasonable excuse, but that the public should be discouraged "from going about with offensive weapons in their pockets; it is the duty of society to protect them."

Another MP pointed out that while "society ought to undertake the defense of its members, nevertheless one has to remember that there are many places where society cannot get, or cannot get there in time. On those occasions a man has to defend himself and those whom he is escorting. It is not much consolation that society will come forward a great deal later, pick up the bits, and punish the violent offender."

In the House of Lords, Lord Saltoun argued: "The object of a weapon was to assist weakness to cope with strength and it is this ability that the bill was framed to destroy.

"I do not think any government has the right, though they may very well have the power, to deprive people for whom they are responsible of the right to defend themselves." However, he added: "Unless there is not only a right but also a fundamental willingness amongst the people to defend themselves, no police force, however large, can do it."

in at government insistence the law passed and became permanent.

A broad revision of criminal law in 1967 altered the common law standard for self- defense. Everything now turns on what appears "reasonable" force against an assailant, considered after the fact. As the author of a legal textbook said, that requirement is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it (self-defense) still forms part of the law."

Although rising crime has left the public increasingly vulnerable, the courts have interpreted the 1953 Act strictly and zealously. In court cases, among the articles found illegally carried with offensive intentions are a sandbag, a pickaxe handle, a stone and a drum of pepper. One legal text conceded: "Any article is capable of being an offensive weapon," but added that if it was unlikely to cause an injury, the onus of proving intent to do so would be "very heavy." Insisting that police stop and search ever greater numbers of people might catch a few would-be muggers, but at a cost of ensuring everyone else remains a hapless and attractive target.

The 1967 Act has not been helpful to those obliged to defend themselves with force either. A legal expert said: "For some reason that is not clear, the courts occasionally seem to regard the scandal of the killing of a robber as of greater moment than the safety of the robber's victim in respect of his person and property."

Four cases illustrate the impact of these measures:


In 1973 a young man running on a road at night was stopped by the police and found to be carrying a length of steel, a cycle chain and a metal clock weight. He explained that a gang of youths had been after him. At his hearing it was found he had been threatened and had notified the police. The justices agreed he had a valid reason to carry the weapons. Indeed, 16 days later he was attacked and beaten so badly he was hospitalized. But the prosecutor appealed against the ruling and the appellate judges insisted that carrying a weapon must be related to an imminent and immediate threat. They sent the case back to the lower court with directions to convict.

In 1987, two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London Underground train carriage, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified: "My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life." In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

In 1994, an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house, while he called the police. When the officers arrived they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

Most familiar is the 1999 case of Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer, victim of six robberies, who shot two professional thieves when they broke into his home at night to rob him yet again. Like 70 percent of rural villages his had no police presence. He received a life sentence for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and 12 months for having an illegal shotgun. The wounded burglar is already free.
in self-defense, wrote William Blackstone, the 18th century English jurist, is a natural right that no government can deprive people of, since no government can protect the individual in his moment of need. The English Bill of Rights of 1689 affirmed the right of individuals "to have arms for their defense." It is a dangerous right. But leaving personal protection to the police is also dangerous, and ineffective. Government is perilously close to denying people the ability to protect themselves at all, and the result is a more, not less, dangerous society.

"It is implicit in a genuine right," said Judge Brown-Wilkinson (Wheeler vs. Leicester City Council 1985) "That exercise (of that right) may work against (some facet of) the public interest; a right to speak only where its exercise advanced the public welfare of public policy would be a hollow guarantee against repression."

History shows that public safety is not enhanced by depriving individuals of their right to personal safety.

The author is professor of history, Bentley College, and senior adviser, MIT Security Studies Program. Her book, "Guns and Violence -- the English Experience," is published this month by Harvard University Press. This column was reprinted from the Financial Times.
 
I really think that if "Big brother" tried to take away fire arms from the American people it would be enough to cause a civil war over it. There are over 80 million gun owners in this country(and should all be NRA members) and if just 1% felt this way that would make a good size army.

To all the folks that think guns should be outlawd in ths country just remember that the 2nd ammendment makes all others possible!

Thanks for posting this Yvsa!;)
 
Preaching to the Choir. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

It is hard to afford a gun a month, though, and still pick up the PGA that inevitably comes along too - sometimes you just gotta pass up one or the other.
 
Thanks for the cut and paste, Yvsa, I couldn't get in, but I read your post with great interest. It seems that we in this country are headed down the same dark path.

Chris, I wish that I shared your optimism, and I truly hope that you are right. I don't think so, but I hope that I'm wrong.

Self Defense ought to be common sense. The Second Amendment ain't about hunting (although there's nothing wrong with that either). Argh.
 
Wow Yvsa, that sent my blood pressure through the roof, but thanks for raising awareness. Too many "social scientists" trying that crap here. You gotta feel sorry for people that are disarmed, thrown to the wolves, then criminalized if some judge decides their attempts to defend their very lives were too "violent". Before any British friends have at me for sounding condescending, let me just say my sympathy is sincere. It honestly sounds to me like decent people are getting handed the short end of the stick over there.
Folks from other places are quick to point out the USA's problems. Sure we've got problems, same as any other "civilized" country, but any yahoo wants to come climbing through my kitchen window tonight is going to find out one problem we ain't got. It's my duty to defend my country, it's only fair my country allows me the means to defend myself.

Sarge
 
Great article Yvsa! Thanks!

I just have to ask this of anybody who's reading this in England and is a Khukuri owner. What's your story gonna be if you ever have to use your khuk in self defense?

Seriously, I am not attempting to poke any fun at you or anything like that. What will you say to the police if you are attacked in your home and you defend yourself or your loved ones with one of your khukuris? Will you say anything at all? Have you planned on using your khuk as a defensive weapon? Or are things really not that bad over there?
 
If you cruise through the archives and run across a post by Mr. Holt on this subject I'm sure you will not have any further doubt.

Rusty, I'm not sure I understand what you said, but I have two very good defecsine weapons and don't feel that I need any more. I will buy ammo. once in a while. Aperson does not remain good with any weapon without some practice.

Yvsa, you get a great big thank you for this one.:)
 
Jeeeezus!

What kind of country can expect young people to risk their lives in a another country to defend it's interests yet criminalize the effort to defend themselves or their relatives at home? What a stinking load!! What a bunch of morons...heroin and cocaine are illegal--is there any shortage? (whether that should be the case is another topic! ) What idiocy to think that making firearms or other weapons illegal will curtail their avalability to those who ignore the "law". Preaching to the choir I know. Ignoring the lessons of empiricism demonstrates the greatest ignorance,arrogance and folly. :barf: :barf:
 
guys...I hope you're right...but give it enough 'sporting usefullness' enough brainwashed public school voters, enough time..and on the day guns are just too bureacratically onerous to own, when they come to get them there will be weapons from upper story windows, across kitchen tables onto the front lawn, out of patios and on the sidewalk, all across this great Country will come a rain of weapons from heirs of the stalwart and the second thoughts of the 'cold dead fingers' crowd.

That's my nightmare. I like to hear about people who believe in something, almost anything in the Age Where Nothing is Known. I especially like thinking about people like you who give a damn and won't surrender. This is the only constitutional right I feel this strongly about.

munk
 
Originally posted by SkagSig40
I really think that if "Big brother" tried to take away fire arms from the American people it would be enough to cause a civil war over it. There are over 80 million gun owners in this country(and should all be NRA members) and if just 1% felt this way that would make a good size army.

To all the folks that think guns should be outlawd in ths country just remember that the 2nd ammendment makes all others possible!

Thanks for posting this Yvsa!;)

The Brady Bunch won't take 'em all at once. They'll chip away, one law at a time until the whole camel is inside the tent. There are over 20,000 gun laws now on the books.....:barf:

Semp --
 
I think most of us are in the choir as Rusty noted but perhaps this piece will do some good for the folks in the congregation -- or those standing outside. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by Semper Fi


The Brady Bunch won't take 'em all at once. They'll chip away, one law at a time until the whole camel is inside the tent. There are over 20,000 gun laws now on the books.....:barf:

Semp --

20,000 laws is a joke!!! All you need is a few good ones that make sense and ENFORCE them!!!!! You use a gun in a crime(robery/theft) you go to jail for life you use it for rape/murder you are put to death!

I could go on and on but I type to slow it took me 10 min to post this reply!!:eek: :p
 
Me too, SkagSig. OVerlegislation is my #1 gripe. Too much crap in the pipes to use the pipes.

Maybe there'd be less stupid laws with a moral society? why not teach Morals and Ethics starting at the grade school level? Sad to think that many don't have parents that played an active role in their child's forming of morals.ethics, but then no one taught the parents either. I have MANY a friend who had to learn on their own what was moral and ethical.

Ignorance is bliss because no one questions themselves or their motives. Truth is, the more moral and ethical a person is, the less blissful one's life will be. Morals are a burden sometimes, but it gets easier in the long run to have morals and a personal code of ethics. Pays you back in full thrice-wise:
1. Lead by example- Your morals demonstrated to/observed by another.
2. Morals considered by another, and then demonstrated by them.
3. Moral behavior by another observed by still another, repeat.

By the way, Iceland has the most moral and ethical society I have had chance to experience. Just wonderful folk in that society, each and every one of the people are working to make/keep it that way.

Keith
En Ferro Veritas
 
I cross posted this over in the Community Forum. If you want to see one Brit's take of the article check out Shortgoth's reply to the post.
I haven't had time to research my answer for him as yet, but I'm gonna start it by telling Danny how sorry I am for him.:(
The article was originally in the Financial Times which I'm led to believe is a London based newspaper?
Anyone know for sure so I won't have to dig it out?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1729490#post1729490

I knew I would be preaching to the choir here but it's good to keep well informed of the belief's some Brits have.
I mean crap, just because something is forbidden what does that leave the victim, Nothing!!!!
Britian's a good place for people like the most of us to either live free or die.
Seems to me that Britian needs a good civil war to get rid of those who leave them defenseless, but I doubt that would help this late in the game.
Common sense is the least common of all senses, but dammit it looks like someone could see the answer over there and take steps to fix it.:(
I'm just glad that I am a Native American in a country based on an old ndn way of government!!!!
 
Yvsa, the NRA has posted and published some articles on the same topic; rising crime in Britain, and quotes British sources as well.

btw; I've always thought ndn's in a unique situation regarding arms. As alledgedly soveriegn, ( they aren't) they might be able to refuse to abide by any court dismissal of the 2nd ammendment.

munk
 
As a fully qualified British lawyer, I can confirm the factual accuracy of Ms Malcolm's report. The statistics she cites about current violent crime rates may not be accurate, since they're British government statistics, and therefore likely to be unreliable; the real position is probably rather worse.

I think it's too late to save freedom and democracy in Britain; the poison's sunk in too deep. I just hope that the Americans reading this will remember the self-evident truths underlying Malcolm's article next time they're called upon to vote.
 
The myth of more guns in society = more crime has been debunked many times. It just happens to be one of those stupid catch phrases that has caught on. Kind of like "If it saves one life, it's worth it", or "It's for the children". I think we should ban ALL vehicles since so many people die behind the wheel, following that logic.

The one country that hoplophobes never want to talk about is Switzerland. They have some of the lowest armed crime statistics in the developed world, and the most guns (by far) per capita. Why isn't there blood running in the streets? My wife and I visited Switzerland in 1999 and had a great time. One evening, we were at a bar and a bunch of young guys came in and sat down, having just gotten off their reserve duty, and ordered beer. They were still in fatigues, and slung their FULLY automatic weapons on the backs of their chairs while they talked and ate and drank. Not an eyebrow was raised. I knew there was one bar that wasn't going to get robbed that night!

Sorry for the rant, I get tired of the same old (wrong) arguments to ban firearms...
 
I believe it is in Switzerland that citizen's keep their arms after active service at the ready. Some old timers still have bolt rifles.

Even in Switzerland gun control is coming. The guns are under individual jurisdiction of little protectorates, the names of which i've forgotten, but like a State withing the Country. Some of these areas have passed more gun control.

munk
 
If the framers of the constitution were to see even some of what's going on they would certainly point to the Bill of Rights and say that's why we wrote it that way!
 
As an Englishman I feel I should be able to use whatever force necessary to defend my family if some scumbag breaks in. I have a kukri under my bed and I think if it came to it I'd act first and worry about the consequences later.
Cases like the Tony Martin case are very unpopular here with the man on the street, but some how we seem to have elected MPs who are anti-gun and against capital punishment.
I do hope you don't allow these do-gooders to turn the USA into a Nanny state like Britain. Remember, it has happened to us, so it could to you:grumpy:
 
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