An interesting view of sharpening "Sharpness for god?"

[Greenberg Woods]

Hey guys, I was thinking about something i learned about many years ago and recently met with some people about. Its a little known aspect of knife sharpening that has to do with Judaism and Kosher law.

In simple terms, for meat to be Kosher "Ok to eat for observant jews" one of the requirements is Kosher slaughter. Along with rules such as that the animal must not be aware or scared and that the motion be a single swift motion as to not cause pain.

There is a line commonly understood that the blade must be "Sharp and smooth" The original Hebrew is often translated as "...using a blade whos edge is sharp, perfect and free of nicks and imperfections" And many rabbis understand this to mean the edge must be very, VERY sharp. I met with a sharpener who worked for a kosher farm whos final sharpening was done using .1 micron diamond paste on a lap. I watched it cut falling hairs and single fibers of cotton. Pretty cool. I will have to take a video of his process next time I see him.

But i found some interesting videos such as these.

This is the best one, this guy has been sharpening knives for many years. "Ignore the short guy at the start, hes an ass"

The videos are rather poor quality, but interesting

 

[12345678910]

How many of the knives do they have ready to go?

 

[Greenberg Woods]

How many of the knives do they have ready to go?

Depends on how many animals. Normally they deem a knife to no longer be "perfect" after 2 to 3. a large operation may have dozens with on hand sharpeners.

 

[AVigil]

Use an Edge pro and you can get a perfect edge and take it to any angle and grit with ease

 

[Horsewright]

As a cattleman I was struck by the rule the cattle must not be aware or scared. Thats so true for any good beef, not just Kosher. Adrenalin ruins a lot of good meat.

 

[Kevin McGovern]

Aldo Bruno actually does a lot of kosher slaughter knives. Yeah they are thin stock and sharp.

 

[Horsewright]

I have two distinct patterns I've made for the branding pen. For turning that bull calf into a steer so he can be good meat a couple of years later. Interestingly, here is one place a knife can be too sharp. A highly polished edge does not "cut right" in this job. I've tried it and had others try it too. 220-330 grit with the burr knocked off is about right.

My Tapadero, designed by a very experienced cowboy as a "perfect" branding knife, (the calves are processed, vaccinated, wormed, branded and cut all at once so the whole shooting matching is referred to as branding even though there is a lot more going on). Lots of places want a thin pointy knife as they might ear mark or wattle their cattle as well as branding.

My Castrator design. Other areas might castrate on a calf table or in a chute instead of roping them like we do. In this case one of these blunt nosed Castrators is good to keep one hand from getting kicked into the point.

My son cutting one of ours. Probably more than you ever wanted to know about this. Sorry for the drift Ben.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

As a cattleman I was struck by the rule the cattle must not be aware or scared. Thats so true for any good beef, not just Kosher. Adrenalin ruins a lot of good meat.

If im not mistaken it has to do with that the animal can't be stunned by a heavy blow

 

[Brock Cutlery]

Great thread. I did some reading on kosher slaughter a year or so ago. Quite enlightening.
I remember butchering my first deer with my buddies in high school. We had no adult supervision.
We prided ourselves on keeping our knives sharp, but half way through that deer all our knives were dull as can be and we were doing more sawing than cutting.
Not sure how great those Herter knives were as far as steel and HT, but technique probably had a lot to do with it too.
We were real green horns at butchering.

 

[12345678910]

I watched that first video twice, yes the short guy was a dick, came off as angry.

But I watched hoping to learn something and every time I thought I'd catch on, they used a yibberish word, or he paused, mumbled a little then stopped talking.

As far as I can tell, his edge is crowned in the middle and he has a 25 degree edge with a 35 degree convex.


However - I've met many European folks that had a pervasive and unwavering attitude of not sharing info. Even worse, they would simle and be your best buddy all the while deliberately feeding you false info; especially if it was job or money related.

 

[Jonathans]

For a minute I thought he was going to get into what the best edge is for an Izmel! Scary stuff.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

I watched that first video twice, yes the short guy was a dick, came off as angry.

But I watched hoping to learn something and every time I thought I'd catch on, they used a yibberish word, or he paused, mumbled a little then stopped talking.

As far as I can tell, his edge is crowned in the middle and he has a 25 degree edge with a 35 degree convex.


However - I've met many European folks that had a pervasive and unwavering attitude of not sharing info. Even worse, they would simle and be your best buddy all the while deliberately feeding you false info; especially if it was job or money related.

Ironics, these are orthodox jews who MEANT it for other jews, so they really arent going to try to keep anything a secret.

Roughly what he keeps referring to is the entire primary bevel has to be honed to a fine edge, the thing he is talking about means nick or scratch. He is saying that if you dont completely hone the bevel, because the edge is so thin "look at how thin the blades themselves are" you will be creating not only a stress point, but also might have resistance when you slaughter, and that would make the meat not Kosher.

 

[Lapedog]

Great thread. I did some reading on kosher slaughter a year or so ago. Quite enlightening.
I remember butchering my first deer with my buddies in high school. We had no adult supervision.
We prided ourselves on keeping our knives sharp, but half way through that deer all our knives were dull as can be and we were doing more sawing than cutting.
Not sure how great those Herter knives were as far as steel and HT, but technique probably had a lot to do with it too.
We were real green horns at butchering.

The knife only has to he sharp for the killing cut. It is this way to cause the animal as little pain as possible.

Kosher laws are very complicated and even growing up my whole life learning them there are lots of minutiae and special case scenarios that I don't know them all.

In terms of a regulated product put on the market, kashrut (koshering) regulations are some of the most stringent.

Another Jewish knife fact is most religious house holds have two sets of plates, flatware, and cutlery as well as cooking vessels. Two butcher knives two paring knives etc. This is so as to not mix meat and milk, which is another dietary law.

There is a passage in the bible which states "thou shall not bathe the calf in its mother's milk" which the Rabbis later interpreted to make a law against mixing meat and milk together, just to be on the safe side. Many Jewish dietary laws were created by the Rabbis to be on the safe side in this way.

I try my best to be kosher. I don't eat pork or any other food considered traif (forbidden). Some foods which we call traif can not be kosher ever like shellfish or pork. Other foods like beef or chicken may be kosher if raised, killed and blessed properly.

Anyway not to go on and on, but we use a sharp knife for circumcision as well.

 

[12345678910]

The knife only has to he sharp for the killing cut. It is this way to cause the animal as little pain as possible.

Another Jewish knife fact is most religious house holds have two sets of plates, flatware, and cutlery as well as cooking vessels. Two butcher knives two paring knives etc. This is so as to not mix meat and milk, which is another dietary law.

Anyway not to go on and on, but we use a sharp knife for circumcision as well.

The meat/milk separation is not a bad idea still now.

There was a local case here where an old order Mennonite / Amish farmer used a pail to slaughter chickens.

Then they used the same pail-not properly cleaned to make cook cheese -
Non pasteurized milk and a low process temperature.
They sold the cheese and had quite a Salmonella outbreak


It's interesting that the knives are pointless.
The way I was shown to kill poultry was to poke in behind the trachea and cut for bleeding.
They didn't notice it. If you cut the trachea, blood would fill the airway and they would be stressed from "drowning"

 

[Lapedog]

The meat/milk separation is not a bad idea still now.

There was a local case here where an old order Mennonite / Amish farmer used a pail to slaughter chickens.

Then they used the same pail-not properly cleaned to make cook cheese -
Non pasteurized milk and a low process temperature.
They sold the cheese and had quite a Salmonella outbreak


It's interesting that the knives are pointless.
The way I was shown to kill poultry was to poke in behind the trachea and cut for bleeding.
They didn't notice it. If you cut the trachea, blood would fill the airway and they would be stressed from "drowning"

Drowning would be considered stressing the animal unecessarily. While many Jewish laws were based in practicality such as hand washing and other sanitation laws to jews the mystical practice of those laws connectingnusnto god are just as important.

During medieval times during various plauge outbreak jewish communities because of our sanitation laws suffered much fewer deaths. We were often blamed for poisoning the well because germs were not understood at this time. They figured we are getting sick and the jews are not, therefor the jews must be poisoning the wells.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

The knife only has to he sharp for the killing cut. It is this way to cause the animal as little pain as possible.

Kosher laws are very complicated and even growing up my whole life learning them there are lots of minutiae and special case scenarios that I don't know them all.

In terms of a regulated product put on the market, kashrut (koshering) regulations are some of the most stringent.

Another Jewish knife fact is most religious house holds have two sets of plates, flatware, and cutlery as well as cooking vessels. Two butcher knives two paring knives etc. This is so as to not mix meat and milk, which is another dietary law.

There is a passage in the bible which states "thou shall not bathe the calf in its mother's milk" which the Rabbis later interpreted to make a law against mixing meat and milk together, just to be on the safe side. Many Jewish dietary laws were created by the Rabbis to be on the safe side in this way.

I try my best to be kosher. I don't eat pork or any other food considered traif (forbidden). Some foods which we call traif can not be kosher ever like shellfish or pork. Other foods like beef or chicken may be kosher if raised, killed and blessed properly.

Anyway not to go on and on, but we use a sharp knife for circumcision as well.

I appreciate the glimpse into your culture very much.

 

[r8shell]

Thanks for posting that video, Greenberg Woods. Pretty interesting. I was surprised when he said there wasn't a minimum length the blade has to be, and that the butcher can use a back and forth motion as long as he doesn't stop between strokes. I always heard the blade had to be twice the width of the animal's throat so as to kill with one stroke.

It was amusing when he was asked "What to the goyim do with these stones?" and he answered that he had no idea. I mean, he must know that even non-Jews use knives in the kitchen.

I watched that first video twice, yes the short guy was a dick, came off as angry.

But I watched hoping to learn something and every time I thought I'd catch on, they used a yibberish word, or he paused, mumbled a little then stopped talking.

As far as I can tell, his edge is crowned in the middle and he has a 25 degree edge with a 35 degree convex.


However - I've met many European folks that had a pervasive and unwavering attitude of not sharing info. Even worse, they would simle and be your best buddy all the while deliberately feeding you false info; especially if it was job or money related.

He wasn't the most articulate man when it comes to explaining his sharpening techniques, but I don't think he was trying to be deliberately evasive. But I wouldn't refer to Hebrew as Yibberish, either.

The knife only has to he sharp for the killing cut. It is this way to cause the animal as little pain as possible.

Kosher laws are very complicated and even growing up my whole life learning them there are lots of minutiae and special case scenarios that I don't know them all.

In terms of a regulated product put on the market, kashrut (koshering) regulations are some of the most stringent.

Another Jewish knife fact is most religious house holds have two sets of plates, flatware, and cutlery as well as cooking vessels. Two butcher knives two paring knives etc. This is so as to not mix meat and milk, which is another dietary law.

There is a passage in the bible which states "thou shall not bathe the calf in its mother's milk" which the Rabbis later interpreted to make a law against mixing meat and milk together, just to be on the safe side. Many Jewish dietary laws were created by the Rabbis to be on the safe side in this way.

I try my best to be kosher. I don't eat pork or any other food considered traif (forbidden). Some foods which we call traif can not be kosher ever like shellfish or pork. Other foods like beef or chicken may be kosher if raised, killed and blessed properly.

Anyway not to go on and on, but we use a sharp knife for circumcision as well.

I grew up eating kosher, but don't anymore. (if I ever go back to it, I think it would be simpler to do it as a vegetarian) I find the kosher laws interesting because some of them can seem to have practical reasons relating to food safety and minimizing suffering for the animal. Others I suspect are deliberately arbitrary. For instance, the admonition about cooking a calf in its mother's milk leading to separation of all meat from all dairy: I never understood why this would apply to poultry. Chickens don't lactate, after all. My own theory is that arbitrary dietary laws slow down assimilation into the dominant culture. You will always be culturally distinct from your Gentile neighbors when you eat different food that they do.

We were often blamed for poisoning the well because germs were not understood at this time. They figured we are getting sick and the jews are not, therefor the jews must be poisoning the wells.

Sometimes you just can't win...

 

[jdm61]

It has stuck me for years that pretty much all of the dietary laws were health related considering when they were written. Pretty amazing knowledge for the time. Just out of curiosity, what rules are their regarding carp and such to avoid liver flukes?

Drowning would be considered stressing the animal unecessarily. While many Jewish laws were based in practicality such as hand washing and other sanitation laws to jews the mystical practice of those laws connectingnusnto god are just as important.

During medieval times during various plauge outbreak jewish communities because of our sanitation laws suffered much fewer deaths. We were often blamed for poisoning the well because germs were not understood at this time. They figured we are getting sick and the jews are not, therefor the jews must be poisoning the wells.

 

[Knife freaky]

I have two distinct patterns I've made for the branding pen. For turning that bull calf into a steer so he can be good meat a couple of years later. Interestingly, here is one place a knife can be too sharp. A highly polished edge does not "cut right" in this job. I've tried it and had others try it too. 220-330 grit with the burr knocked off is about right.

My Tapadero, designed by a very experienced cowboy as a "perfect" branding knife, (the calves are processed, vaccinated, wormed, branded and cut all at once so the whole shooting matching is referred to as branding even though there is a lot more going on). Lots of places want a thin pointy knife as they might ear mark or wattle their cattle as well as branding.

My Castrator design. Other areas might castrate on a calf table or in a chute instead of roping them like we do. In this case one of these blunt nosed Castrators is good to keep one hand from getting kicked into the point.

My son cutting one of ours. Probably more than you ever wanted to know about this. Sorry for the drift Ben.

Sorry to drag this off topic again but it's always good to see another cowboy on here! I have a castration knife about the same shape as that one. Very handy for uh shall we say the dirty work. Lol. Another plus of the castration is you can fry em up and have em for dinner! we call em calf fries or rocky mountain oysters. Delicious! Sorry for way off topic there!

 

[r8shell]

It has stuck me for years that pretty much all of the dietary laws were health related considering when they were written. Pretty amazing knowledge for the time. Just out of curiosity, what rules are their regarding carp and such to avoid liver flukes?

I don't know anything about liver flukes in particular, but any seafood must have scales, so that rules out most bottom feeders.