An interesting view of sharpening "Sharpness for god?"

[Lapedog]

It has stuck me for years that pretty much all of the dietary laws were health related considering when they were written. Pretty amazing knowledge for the time. Just out of curiosity, what rules are their regarding carp and such to avoid liver flukes?

Yes the knowledge is quite impressive for the time. Some of the knowledge is very advanced for the time and traditionally we say those laws were given to Moses by god.

As far as I know there is no dietary law that protects against flukes from carp or anything. Culturally Jews and their neighbours were not eating sushi at the time so cooking their fish was probably the best protection they had and they didn't need a dietary law per se. However that is just a guess.

Dietary laws regarding fish or seafood is as follows. First of all fish is not considered a meat and therefor is parve. (meaning not meat or milk and thus you can eat it with anything) We are not allowed to eat any "creeping things" so that includes all shellfish like clams or shrimp.

Of the fish in order to be kosher they have to have both scales (which can be scraped off with a knife without breaking the skin) and fins. They say in the bible that there is no such fish as has these scales but no fins. As far as I know this prediction is accurate despite being written thousands of years ago. (The ancients knew more than we give them credit for sometimes.)

 

[jdm61]

Anyone notice how the shorter version of those blades look like a nakiri? I also wonder if the strict definition of fish was a response to some of the crazy definition propagated by the Catholic church in medieval times. Seals and beavers as "fish" because they hung out in the water? I ask because if one is strictly observant, certain very good pelagic saltwater fish might not qualify because the don't have big scales that can be easily scraped off or are not routinely scaled. Thinking of tuna, dolphin (mahi) and such.

 

[Lapedog]

Thanks for posting that video, Greenberg Woods. Pretty interesting. I was surprised when he said there wasn't a minimum length the blade has to be, and that the butcher can use a back and forth motion as long as he doesn't stop between strokes. I always heard the blade had to be twice the width of the animal's throat so as to kill with one stroke.

It was amusing when he was asked "What to the goyim do with these stones?" and he answered that he had no idea. I mean, he must know that even non-Jews use knives in the kitchen.
He wasn't the most articulate man when it comes to explaining his sharpening techniques, but I don't think he was trying to be deliberately evasive. But I wouldn't refer to Hebrew as Yibberish, either.
I grew up eating kosher, but don't anymore. (if I ever go back to it, I think it would be simpler to do it as a vegetarian) I find the kosher laws interesting because some of them can seem to have practical reasons relating to food safety and minimizing suffering for the animal. Others I suspect are deliberately arbitrary. For instance, the admonition about cooking a calf in its mother's milk leading to separation of all meat from all dairy: I never understood why this would apply to poultry. Chickens don't lactate, after all. My own theory is that arbitrary dietary laws slow down assimilation into the dominant culture. You will always be culturally distinct from your Gentile neighbors when you eat different food that they do.
Sometimes you just can't win...

To be honest I came to the same conclusion about the chicken. I think the rabbis used the law about the calf and the mother's milk as a clever way to avoid cross contamination between dairy and meat products. I'm sure you know we are commanded to trust the rabbis wisdom, but in modern times I mix poultry and dairy. That way I can mix meat and milk sort of while still avoiding the closer definition and mixing non poultry meats with milk.

I don't eat only kosher foods, just try not to eat traif.

 

[Lapedog]

Anyone notice how the shorter version of those blades look like a nakiri? I also wonder if the strict definition of fish was a router to some of the crazy definition propagated by the Catholic church in medical times. Seals and beavers as "fish" because they hung out in the water? I ask because if one is strictly observant, certain very good pelagic saltwater fish might not qualify because the don't have big scales that can be easily scraped off or are not routinely scaled. Thinking of tuna, dolphin (mahi) and such.

I don't mnow about mahi mahi but I believe tuna is kosher. Even though they have scales that are not easily scraped off the fact that they still physically can be makes them kosher. It is not that they necessarily must scale every fish before blessing it for it to be kosher, rather just that the fish CAN be scaled and has fins.

 

[jdm61]

I don't mnow about mahi mahi but I believe tuna is kosher. Even though they have scales that are not easily scraped off the fact that they still physically can be makes them kosher. It is not that they necessarily must scale every fish before blessing it for it to be kosher, rather just that the fish CAN be scaled and has fins.

Well, if a tuna qualifies, then the other big pelagic fish should too. I would be sad if devout folks were denied the pleasures of mahi, wahoo, etc. The only potential issues that I would see is that big tuna are bled on the boat to keep the meet form being "burnt" and in the case of the big bluefin, a thin rod or very thick piece of monofilament leader is run down their spinal cord to kill the nerves so that the fish doesn't "twitch" after it is dead.
I saw one website that said that marlin, sailfish, spearfish, etc are to not Kosher because the don't have scales, but the swordfish is the only billfish that is technically scaleless. The other interesting fish is the sturgeon because it has scales when it is young, but develops that armored coat later in life.

 

[jdm61]

Have you ever tried to milk a chicken? It ain't easy.

To be honest I came to the same conclusion about the chicken. I think the rabbis used the law about the calf and the mother's milk as a clever way to avoid cross contamination between dairy and meat products. I'm sure you know we are commanded to trust the rabbis wisdom, but in modern times I mix poultry and dairy. That way I can mix meat and milk sort of while still avoiding the closer definition and mixing non poultry meats with milk.

I don't eat only kosher foods, just try not to eat traif.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

To be honest I came to the same conclusion about the chicken. I think the rabbis used the law about the calf and the mother's milk as a clever way to avoid cross contamination between dairy and meat products. I'm sure you know we are commanded to trust the rabbis wisdom, but in modern times I mix poultry and dairy. That way I can mix meat and milk sort of while still avoiding the closer definition and mixing non poultry meats with milk.

I don't eat only kosher foods, just try not to eat traif.

The way my rabbi explained it, if there is even a SLIGHT chance the meat used and the milk used where mother and calf, it would not be kosher, so the seperate dishes serve to make sure it never happens.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

Well, if a tuna qualifies, then the other big pelagic fish should too. I would be sad if devout folks were denied the pleasures of mahi, wahoo, etc. The only potential issues that I would see is that big tuna are bled on the boat to keep the meet form being "burnt" and in the case of the big bluefin, a thin rod or very thick piece of monofilament leader is run down their spinal cord to kill the nerves so that the fish doesn't "twitch" after it is dead.
I saw one website that said that marlin, sailfish, spearfish, etc are to not Kosher because the don't have scales, but the swordfish is the only billfish that is technically scaleless. The other interesting fish is the sturgeon because it has scales when it is young, but develops that armored coat later in life.

The specific rules of kosher slaughter apply firstly to "the beasts" cows, goats and sheep mainly. Kosher says it must be an herbavoir with cliven hooves that chews its cudd, ans that camals and pigs are forbidden no matter what.

The kosher slaughter is not applied to fish as long as it js not caused "undo suffering"

The most common kosher way to kill fish i kmow of is to slice the gills and cause rapid exangination.

 

[Lapedog]

Well, if a tuna qualifies, then the other big pelagic fish should too. I would be sad if devout folks were denied the pleasures of mahi, wahoo, etc. The only potential issues that I would see is that big tuna are bled on the boat to keep the meet form being "burnt" and in the case of the big bluefin, a thin rod or very thick piece of monofilament leader is run down their spinal cord to kill the nerves so that the fish doesn't "twitch" after it is dead.
I saw one website that said that marlin, sailfish, spearfish, etc are to not Kosher because the don't have scales, but the swordfish is the only billfish that is technically scaleless. The other interesting fish is the sturgeon because it has scales when it is young, but develops that armored coat later in life.

Sturgeons are not kosher. I know for sure. This is because the scales cannot be removed without tearing the skin. That is the same reason some billfish who have scales are not kosher. Sharks also have dentin structures resembling scales, but trying to scrape them will destroy the skin. It has to do with the way they are embedded in the skin.

Speculation: I believe this law is likely to avoid eating predatory fish. The average ancient fisherman pulling a fish out if the water will likely not be able to identify if it is predatory or not. We have precedent in what birds are kosher. Birds of prey are not kosher. No land animal that is kosher is predatory.

Gross fact: among the Sephardic jews there are 4 species of desert locust which are kosher. The only kosher invertebrates. They say that on the stomach of these locusts is a marking resembling the hebrew word "chai" in hebrew script. Chai means life in hebrew and is considered a sort of good omen ,or auspicious word. The #18 also sybolizes chai.

My rabbi told me he believes the reason the locusts are kosher is because they would swarm destroying all crops and vegetation until there was nothing left to eat but the locusts themselves. (These are the same biblical locusts that were one of the ten plauges on egypt)

Greenberg Woods : Rabbis from different communities usually have different stories and justification behind the same rituals, which remains one of their favourite things to argue over.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

Greenberg Woods : Rabbs from different communities usually have different stories and justification behind the same rituals, which remains one of their favourite things to argue over.

Are you saying old jews would argue over semantics!?! Next you'll be telling me there are jews in finance, comedy and law.

 

[jdm61]

One of the interesting things about fish, especially saltwater fish, is that almost all of them that you would bother to eat are predators/carnivores. The sea is essentially a desert punctuates by patches of great abundance. We are told in school that big filter feeders like whale sharks and balleen whales eat plakton and little shrimp, but I can tell you from personal observations that a whale shark in Mexico will crash up form below and swallow and entire bait ball or sardines being hunted by tuna, dolphin, sailfish, marlin etc. and they problem swallow the odd bonito in the process. You eat whater you can catch in the ocean when the opportunity presents itself. Interesting about the billfish. One issue is that billfish, tuna, wahoo, etc may have developed these very small round scales because they are ridiculously fast swimming predators who have incredible slick, streamlined bodies.True tuna donut even swim the same way as most other fish. Their body remains stationary and their tail flicks back and forth very rapidly almost like a propellor. The mako shark, which is the fastest of the big sharks, shows similar evolution.

On a more general note, I have heard more than once that the piety and adherence to the Law of a reasonable observant modern Jew would probably impress the average Jew from the late Second Temple period. The theory seemed to be that stricter everyday observance of rules and ritual by individuals become much more critical in Rabbinic Judaism once their was no Temple and priestly Levite class because the people essentially had to "carry the Temple with them."

Sturgeons are not kosher. I know for sure. This is because the scales cannot be removed without tearing the skin. That is the same reason some billfish who have scales are not kosher. Sharks also have dentin structures resembling scales, but trying to scrape them will destroy the skin. It has to do with the way they are embedded in the skin.

Speculation: I believe this law is likely to avoid eating predatory fish. The average ancient fisherman pulling a fish out if the water will likely not be able to identify if it is predatory or not. We have precedent in what birds are kosher. Birds of prey are not kosher. No land animal that is kosher is predatory.

Gross fact: among the Sephardic jews there are 4 species of desert locust which are kosher. The only kosher invertebrates. They say that on the stomach of these locusts is a marking resembling the hebrew word "chai" in hebrew script. Chai means life in hebrew and is considered a sort of good omen ,or auspicious word. The #18 also sybolizes chai.

My rabbi told me he believes the reason the locusts are kosher is because they would swarm destroying all crops and vegetation until there was nothing left to eat but the locusts themselves. (These are the same biblical locusts that were one of the ten plauges on egypt)

Greenberg Woods : Rabbs from different communities usually have different stories and justification behind the same rituals, which remains one of their favourite things to argue over.

 

[Lapedog]

One of the interesting things about fish, especially saltwater fish, is that almost all of them that you would bother to eat are predators/carnivores. The sea is essentially a desert punctuates by patches of great abundance. We are told in school that big filter feeders like whale sharks and balleen whales eat plakton and little shrimp, but I can tell you from personal observations that a whale shark in Mexico will crash up form below and swallow and entire bait ball or sardines being hunted by tuna, dolphin, sailfish, marlin etc. and they problem swallow the odd bonito in the process. You eat whater you can catch in the ocean when the opportunity presents itself. Interesting about the billfish. One issue is that billfish, tuna, wahoo, etc may have developed these very small round scales because they are ridiculously fast swimming predators who have incredible slick, streamlined bodies.True tuna donut even swim the same way as most other fish. Their body remains stationary and their tail flicks back and forth very rapidly almost like a propellor. The mako shark, which is the fastest of the big sharks, shows similar evolution.

On a more general note, I have heard more than once that the piety and adherence to the Law of a reasonable observant modern Jew would probably impress the average Jew from the late Second Temple period. The theory seemed to be that stricter everyday observance of rules and ritual by individuals become much more critical in Rabbinic Judaism once their was no Temple and priestly Levite class because the people essentially had to "carry the Temple with them."

Yes that is correct, an observant jew, particularly orthodox, while not necessarily more pious, is definitely more stringing in his onservation . I wonder about interpretations of how religious our ancestors were. They find little statues or images of gods who are not our Jewish one Abrahamic god. Big G god. They conclude the jewish household are breaking the law against strange gods. But if you consider the markets and industries of that era; a household in those days without some image of a god would be like a household today without a corporate logo in it.

 

[12345678910]

But I wouldn't refer to Hebrew as Yibberish, either.

Spell check be damned I couldn't find the word I was looking for.

 

[DanF]

Interesting thread. Early civilizations advanced knowledge is not surprising, considering the source of that knowledge.

 

[jdm61]

Good points. The impression that I got from reading those articles, etc, was that they "High Holy Day Jew" thing was at least as common back then as now. I would be interested to read some info on how the practices of say the huge Jewish community in Alexandria differed from Jerusalem. My understanding is that while the roots of modern Rabbinic Judaism were developed shortly after the 66AD revolt in country, but a lot of the Talmudic writings, etc come from the post 136 Levantine community and even more so, the Iraqi community a couple of hundred years later.

 

[Ken H>]

A very good discussion folk - enjoy it. I grew up in an area with very few (not any?) jewish folks around. A funny - in the 1980's I was working "back home" and had a engineering co-op student come to work one year. He was sorta my apprentice, so we because buddies. He went to the local drugstore and asked the clerk about hanukkah cards. The lady thinks a minute, and says "We don't have any hanukkah cards, but the rook and poker cards are over there". Poor lady didn't have a clue what hanukkah was. We both got a good laugh from that.