An old industrial electric kiln, a waste of time or deal time?

[SinePari]

I'm not sure what any of that means...but it isn't engineering when a something is a bad deal.




I have used and owned dozens of kilns and oven types over the past forty years. I have talked with people who have used and modified many others and seen what they have done. It isn't engineering snobbery or over-exactness that says a 5X5X10" chamber isn't suitable for anything but a 4-5" long blade...and it won't do a batch of those. I get a chuckle when people who haven't built a forge/don't own an oven/forged one knife/can't get a good HT/etc. give sage advice on what "works" and how to skirt the edged and modify well established norms.

Woah woah woah... Hold the phone... I seem to have touched on a tender sensitivity where someone feels the need to take the thread where it doesn't belong....

I get a chuckle when people who haven't built a forge/don't own an oven/forged one knife/can't get a good HT/etc. give sage advice on what "works" and how to skirt the edged and modify well established norms

established norms for whom? I can't see past the wall of your experience? Some of you gents forget that not all of us are qualified to be in the same genre of knifemaker, and love to chime in when it comes to expressing one's opinion (with knife making resume attached) over others, even when my post was more of a skirting of an established opinion, reflecting on the space between, rather than a yes or no...

What if his needs were a single blade? I'm the kind of noob that would do one small knife at a time... Is there something wrong with that practice? I know it's not within the realm of awesomeness that is you, but what about this noob who's skirting the edge or modifying norms???

Forgive my reaction, but I was caught off guard with this bladsmth... I don't feel such a reply was warranted, but apparently I struck a nerve and you felt the need to mock my experience as if I were touting it... Am I strange? probably to some, but I wasn't being contentious, singling anyone out, or taking shots...

Stacy, thanks for responding to this, because frankly I wasn't certain how to without forehead slapping. I thought I was pretty clear about 'why'!

For the clarification of others, the heating elements don't run at the set temp. They need to run HOTTER than the set temp so they can bring the entire kiln to the set temp. They radiate this energy, so locations closer to them will invariably be hotter than areas further away. MUCH hotter (easily a couple hundred degrees). If the tip of your blade is an inch away from an element and your kiln is set for 1500 degrees, I guarantee you that the tip of your blade sees 1700 degrees or so for a while. Don't need a blade sniffing beagle to realize what happens then!
A shroud can be used to keep this direct energy at bay, but with so little room in there to make one, the limitations of its size become more and more problematic.

My apologies to you as well Mr. Gregory, if you felt I was negating your informative post. It's been pointed out that I have forged one blade, less than a week ago, and have very little experience with HT. I'm a beginner to the craft and don't want to punch the gift horse in the mouth; especially with my first couple of posts in the general forum. I totally understand the distortion of radiation and how it's proximity to heat source can cause uneven heat treat and in certain cases possibly burning steel. I'm still in the 5160/1084 learning curve , and as of now interested in small blades of that steel composition. Something small like this kiln has peaked my curiosity, and the information in this thread has tightened that shot group. Thank you for your professionalism in the disconnect...

 

[SinePari]

I'll stop posting after 2 am... a personal curfew of sorts...

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I'll stop posting after 2 am... a personal curfew of sorts...

That's funny as hell!!

No harm, no foul.

I think, perhaps, the wording of your initial post in this thread was easy to misinterpret, and also was vaguely reminiscent of a former member who has since been banned. The echoes of his incendiary posts rang in yours, I think. I'm guessing Stacy felt this, as well. You, however, don't seem to have his need to be a shit-starter. Sorry of you felt dismissed!

 

[SinePari]

That's funny as hell!!

No harm, no foul.

I think, perhaps, the wording of your initial post in this thread was easy to misinterpret, and also was vaguely reminiscent of a former member who has since been banned. The echoes of his incendiary posts rang in yours, I think. I'm guessing Stacy felt this, as well. You, however, don't seem to have his need to be a shit-starter. Sorry of you felt dismissed!

Be it that this was the second time today I came off awkwardly without intending to do so, I have to bow out to the reality that I'm just having a socially awkward day in regards to textual correspondence... I had to read it a few more times to see where lack of sleep and thoughts-to-text got a little discombobulated... Swearzies> no bad juju.

I can't help but laugh at being pointed out as a rouge member who found his way back... This is about the 5th time someone said that... I've had about three different members call me out by 3 different banned usernames... lol? I got really thrown for a loop when a member ambush/addressed me as"Lester Snorleson, I got you!!!!" Thought it was some kind of subforum slang term slander

So a real "out there, but nagging need for a clue"question to get this back on track;

Be it that this kiln doesn't work due to it lacking needed dimensions, what size would be sufficient for the sake of uniform HT, on the 5-7" range, 5 knives max??? While there are kilns this size in my area, there are also larger top-loading kilns around the same $$$ range would these be suitable for small batches of HT, or are "knife specific ovens" just a better suited all-around machines with a different means of heat source?



getting close to 2am... lol

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Knife kilns have chambers that are in a height/width ratio designed for knives. They are long and narrow, which allows even heating of the blade and easy access to the blade end for insertion and removal. Many have rather narrow height and width that are close in size - e.g., 5.5X4.5". This is a good ratio for one or two blades. Larger batches need spacing of about 1/2" between blades on a rack, so the larger knife ovens have chambers wider/taller - e.g., 10X6.5". Length should be sufficiently deep to allow a blade to sit in the center facing straight back. About 2" from each end clearance is good. Side clearance is best kept around 2", also.
So, doing five blades blade 7" long, the "rectangle" of blades in the rack will be roughly 3X7". That would become 7X11" with a 2" space around it. The minimum proper chamber size would be 7X6X11", which isn't any standard size (10X6.5X18" is a standard size). If doing single blades, as small as 5X5X12" would work.

The biggest thing a knife oven needs is a set point programmable controller. These are sometimes 1/3 or more of the cost. Just putting a regular PID on the oven won't work nearly as well as a programmable controller. The ability to enter multiple programs and save them is also a great benefit.

A lot of the above info and more is why I said the oven in question isn't a good choice.



What I was trying to point out to you was that you are just getting started making knives and building equipment. You are eager, but have no experience in knifemaking. You occupation as "Chief Justice Supreme", or your interests in "porn and metal" ( see profile) hasn't given you any particular knife making skills, either.
Those who have used knifemaking skills for a while have a better understanding of how and why some things work better than others. Many of us learned in the pre-internet days when trial and error were the ways you learned. Today, others have the benefit of those peoples efforts and can avoid buying poor equipment or having fatal errors in making a knife. The internet has greatly shortened this learning curve. However, it is a two-edged sword. Many posts, videos, links, and advice found on the internet is not good info. New makers often are eager to jump in an offer advice when they haven't formed the basis for the advice they give. What they post is there forever when another person comes along looking. That is why we as moderators try to encourage waiting to post until you actually have some experience on the subject at question. Just the other day someone posted that silicon carbide was a flux resistant refractory cement.


As far as multiple people thinking you are a banned user who baited threads and started arguments....you have to stop and ask yourself why they would think that ?????
Perhaps you taking a look at the info in your profile and reading the posts you have been making over the last 6 months will lead you to understand why that might be a thought.

 

[SinePari]

Knife kilns have chambers that are in a height/width ratio designed for knives. They are long and narrow, which allows even heating of the blade and easy access to the blade end for insertion and removal. Many have rather narrow height and width that are close in size - e.g., 5.5X4.5". This is a good ratio for one or two blades. Larger batches need spacing of about 1/2" between blades on a rack, so the larger knife ovens have chambers wider/taller - e.g., 10X6.5". Length should be sufficiently deep to allow a blade to sit in the center facing straight back. About 2" from each end clearance is good. Side clearance is best kept around 2", also.
So, doing five blades blade 7" long, the "rectangle" of blades in the rack will be roughly 3X7". That would become 7X11" with a 2" space around it. The minimum proper chamber size would be 7X6X11", which isn't any standard size (10X6.5X18" is a standard size). If doing single blades, as small as 5X5X12" would work.

The biggest thing a knife oven needs is a set point programmable controller. These are sometimes 1/3 or more of the cost. Just putting a regular PID on the oven won't work nearly as well as a programmable controller. The ability to enter multiple programs and save them is also a great benefit.

A lot of the above info and more is why I said the oven in question isn't a good choice.



What I was trying to point out to you was that you are just getting started making knives and building equipment. You are eager, but have no experience in knifemaking. You occupation as "Chief Justice Supreme", or your interests in "porn and metal" ( see profile) hasn't given you any particular knife making skills, either.
Those who have used knifemaking skills for a while have a better understanding of how and why some things work better than others. Many of us learned in the pre-internet days when trial and error were the ways you learned. Today, others have the benefit of those peoples efforts and can avoid buying poor equipment or having fatal errors in making a knife. The internet has greatly shortened this learning curve. However, it is a two-edged sword. Many posts, videos, links, and advice found on the internet is not good info. New makers often are eager to jump in an offer advice when they haven't formed the basis for the advice they give. What they post is there forever when another person comes along looking. That is why we as moderators try to encourage waiting to post until you actually have some experience on the subject at question. Just the other day someone posted that silicon carbide was a flux resistant refractory cement.

Awesome, and thanks... The top-opening ovens are plentiful here, and many have the dimensions you've given, and then some... I don't know what differentiates the paralleled costs, but in this case it's a good thing. I'm probably going to take the plunge and scoop one up, and slowly make the necessary changes. I'm all about going though these little learning curves of canibalizing, repurposing, and rebuilding things to suit my fabricating needs. While those efforts might not be efficient or streamlined as you'd like, and it might not necessarily coincide with the whole "working smarter rather than harder" ideology, but I get a lot out of the process... I'll be able to afford someone good advice on occasion, and chances are that advice will be from seasoned experience.

I understand. I came here for the press build without interest in knives, and mainly hung out in W&C, until I was berated into posting in General D.... Here I am, engaged and interested. I posted about the siC, and yes there are siC refractory cement mixes that are "said to be" pretty bullet proof to flux... Didn't you reinforce their existence and use to be mainly associated with those whom delve into pattern-welded blades???

As far as multiple people thinking you are a banned user who baited threads and started arguments....you have to stop and ask yourself why they would think that ?????
Perhaps you taking a look at the info in your profile and reading the posts you have been making over the last 6 months will lead you to understand why that might be a thought.

This isn't the first time you've been short with me... I think that you've already made up your mind about who I am, and what I'm apparently here to do. That being said I will continue to appreciate your incite, advice, and experience. Maybe in time you'll see past the trivial nonsense of how my profile sculpts my character... All I can do is drive on and stop posting after 2am.