An open and honest discussion about pricing.

Oh man. I guess I did blow it. What can I say I am ex-USAF and it's a force of habit to address a superior officer by rank, even when retired.

He's just a bit of a hermit and enjoys his privacy and all, and that is well and good but the man's work is amazing and he makes it look so easy when he does things and the speed that he gets things done is something to see.

How he prices his work is beyond me, at least at this time. He does produce, that's for sure and when she says he works..he works, and works hard. I have spent many an afternoon during my off season over his place and he is always doing something, no "dead time"..When he's got something heating he's filing and fitting until it's ready..little things like that really boost production.

I think that is one of the key factors in being successful at this, no down time, being able to get as much done in as little time as possible. Doing everything you can yourself. What takes me a day or two to get done he can do in a couple of hours. Guess that comes with experience and knowing what to do when.

The only real drawback with popping over there is during the summer, once the forge is going it get's like 130 degrees in there, yet the old man just keeps on going. Talk about dedication to the craft.

I undertand the idea about paying your dues, that is where I am right now and I am learning, and realise that I am making mistakes here and there but I am getting ahead.

I just hope that the old man doesn't throw his 8 lb hammer at me the next time he sees me...

Jason
 
+1 for what JasonX said about working hard. If you have worked for long in the real world for contractors, manufacturers, retail even, whoever - you will probably know that the people who work hard and smart are the ones who get ahead. (I'm not even going to get into butt-kissers and politics...)

For some, the ability to work on their own time and dime and not worry about really busting their ass but just enjoying doing what they love can be a really rewarding sideline, even bring in a little extra income. I think, though, that many of those who are full time makers who can maybe even viably support a family with their craft, act and need to act as their own talented, devoted, and loyal employees. To have drive and a serious work ethic. To not only work hard, but smart - trying to think often about efficiency and making the most of that precious shop time.

I'm not saying this should be the case for everyone, but I try to think of my potential buyers as my employers and I want to feel like I earn what they pay me. Especially since I have to charge what amounts to a shop rate plus materials for the finished product. Everyone is free to do as they please in their own shops, charge what they will, but for those of us aspiring to put bread on the table with this craft, my opinion is we have to be exceptional workers.

If you take your car to a shop, watch them work, and the lazy S.O.B's take three hours to do a 45 min. job, are you going to be happy to pay them for three hours at $90.00/hr shop rate? I realize it's not at all that simple, but doing things like filing and fitting while heating the next blade, or working in methodical, well thought out ways, may make the difference ultimately in a career.

Dammit, I kinda get a kick out of NVHammerhead's identity mystery. Although, if you wanna be low key, try not constantly convincing everyone you're a "nobody".... heh heh heh.
 
Hi Friends,

Wow, there's a fair amount of some pretty erudite stuff writ up here! Guess, I'll add my two cents to the pile.

If one needs to make at least 100 (or perhaps over 500) blades to get a firm grasp of the mechanics and techniques of bladesmithing, then you got to do something with those buggas! Sure, give them away to family and friends; trade them with vendors and merchants...but, hey, what the heck, why not sell them to honest folks for an honest buck too?

I'm just working at getting to the starting line with bladesmithing, but have some experience along similar lines with jewelry making. The pinnacle of my jewelry making career was in the late eighties goldsmithing in Beverly Hills. You can bet the cost of my work then (time and materials and customer price) was considerably different than that of the bone and antler carved pieces I started making in the mid seventies. Never-the-less, all along the way, no matter what level of skill or value of materials...I sold my wares! Sure, I paid my dues, over and over. But to me it was always, "hey some one just gave me cash money for my handwork, heehaa!"

I also developed in three different ways. I designed "lines" of jewelry and hand made dozens, hundreds and thousands of them. Thus I got pretty darn good at any given step of putting them together. They sold for pretty low prices ($10-$100) and sold well. I also did a lot of repair work. That provided liberal amounts of customer satisfaction, learned me a lot and made fair wages. Then there were the one of a kind pieces, whether for shows or galleries or custom orders. They were lots of fun, could tie up fair amounts of capital in the way of materials, might take a while to get completed and/or sell, but usually returned a good net earning.

You sure do have to wear lots of hats to be successful in business: tradesman, manager, salesman, designer, visionary. Most any business of our ilk starts out with the tradesman. For instance, someone good at cooking or baking soon finds out they need to be good at a whole lot more too to make money at cooking and baking. Never-the-less, for me, it has always been the love of my craft that has sustained my drive to develop other capacities too. Maybe its the same for others?

When it comes to pricing, all the equations and suggestions above are good. It really does come down to you though, and how well you can look someone in the eye while holding your wares and neither under or over value your work. This can be a damn near therapeutic place of self reflection and self integrity and self growth. It is sometimes a painful place to be in, and one of the most difficult in the whole journey. I appreciate the question, always have, probably always will.

Good luck grappling with it!

All the best, Phil
 
I am a fulltime maker and support myself with knife sales. OK, I underprice my work. I also will stop and take the time to help a newbie who comes to my shop and spend the whole day teaching. Been paying dues for 20 yrs. Dont go to shows, am really crappy at marketing, hate working on my website, but truly love the art of making knives. I live and breath it. I strive for every knife to be better than the next. I go to sleep thinking how can I improve my work or try a different style for the challenge. Study and read new ways of producing a better knife. Due to this, I dont get lots of orders, and freak out when the electric bill is due and sell a knife to cheap. But the bills have to be paid. My greatest joy is when I get an order for a high end knife and the buyer gives me the freedom to do my thing. Wish there was someone who would just take the business end and deal with it. I hate pricing knives.
 
A problem that I see with custom knives is that the prices don't seem to have kept up with the rest of the world over the last 25 years or so. This may be an issue of supply. There are a LOT more custom makers out there than there were in say 1985 and as a group, they are doing higher quality work across the board. Sure, the guys that were getting $400-500 back then for a particular knife are now getting $1000 or much more today for the same knife, but that is because they are the "old masters" so to speak. Someone of similar skill today would be hard pressed to get the $400-500 that they were getting back then for the same knife!! A goodly number of plain jane "user" production knives are now selling for more than what I have been told a maker with the experience that I have should sell expect to a similar knife for. I know that retail is not what you really pay in many cases, but I am talking about some production knives that are only sold directly from the maker. Customs, particularly fixed blade users, seem, in many cases, to have gone from being a superior alternative to production knives to be a CHEAPER one.:confused: Also, these production makers have the advantage of big advertising and promotion budgets and have established significant brand loyalty. It's kind of a tough sell to try to get someone to buy a knife that gives them more features than their favorite for the same money when said knife hasn't been personally forged by Hephaestus from the miracle steel of the gods, normalized in the fires of Hades and quenched with the blood of 10,000 Taliban.:D
 
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I am a very new maker that wants to do better with every knife i make. I have no idea what to charge for a knife that some one wants me to make. It usually takes me around $35 -$45 in materials and services to make a knife. Now that I really think I am able to get better at this I will be looking for ways of cutting that cost by buying in bulk. It takes me a long time to make a knife, alot longer than it needs too, but that is because I am still learning and refining my methods. I was told by an old knifemaker who helped me and let me go to his shop and learn to find out the price of material cost and double that. He said that way when you sell a knife you will have money to build two knives and so on. I waste alot of money right now on shipping but I add that to the cost of making the knife. I sold a knife for $85 dollars and someone bought it right away. The next knife I made was very similar and I bumped up the price to $95 and it sold right away also. It was bought by the same guy so I know he was pleased with the product. I was just floored that someone would pay me for something I built and put so much effort into. I have no idea what formula to use to put a price on my time and sweat but the people buying them will dictate that I guess. I work as a project manager for a large networking Infrastructure company and at the end of the day it's the bottom line that counts. I must say that I make knives cause I love doing it. If I said it was for the money then that would make me a horrible businessman. Hopefully one day in the future I can have a respected name, experience, and the ability to do this for a living. Thats what is really keeps me doing this, "the dream". Thanks.

-frank

P.S. this has to be the coolest phrase worth being in someones sig line.

been personally forged by Hephesteus from the miracle steel of the gods, normalized in the fires of Hades and quenched with the blood of 10,000 Taliban.
Click to expand...
 
I price my knives for what I think they are worth, not on what the market is doing or what Joe down the street sells his for. If they sell that's fine if they don't well that's a different story. I like to think that they are fair priced and as long as the customer is happy. The last show I went to I sold every thing on my table and there were a lot of well known makers that didn't sell any. It is still hard for me to put a price on any of my work, I will tell someone what a knife cost and they either gasp or grin and reach for their wallet. I still have yet to have that one big sell. Most of my knives are from $200 to $400 depending on what it is and a few makers that are MS and JS say that I'm selling them too cheap but they are selling and that is what counts.
 
Please don't consider this a grenade, it is not meant to be

is the OP about >custom< knives: meaning something made specifically for a customer to the customer's specifications and design?

or are we talking about >handmade< meaning something made by the knifemaker with no specific customer in mind to the specifications and ideas of the knifemaker?

For a >CUSTOM< knife, something where I meet with the person ordering the knife, or they talk to me at an event and we draw out what they want, make up an order sheet, have them sign that "this is what they are ordering and they can expect that I will produce a knife to that specification at this price" I go double the materials and fuel and estimate my time to produce what they want, and multiply that by my standard shop rate.

For a >handmade< knife I get a lot less because they are priced by what the market is currently willing to pay for my work. I make money on my simple steel knives, I lose money on my damascus work because of all the time and fuel that goes into making my billets. They are a labor of love, and I will eventually build a press so that I can make billets in a reasonable amount of time so I can balance the equation.

-Page
 
Los Angeles said:
TOTAL COST OF MANUFACTURE: $130
WHOLESALE PRICE = $130 x 2 = $260
RETAIL PRICE = $260 x 2.25 = $585
Retail price = $585 - Trade Show Sale Price = $385.
Click to expand...

There's an easy solution to this part of the question, at least:

You log what's knife time and not just knifemaking time. Wherever you're recording the hours you spend making damascus, filing guards, and sanding blades, you also record emailing customers, packing boxes, and driving to shows. That's the actual labor involved in a knife, and nothing's excluded.

I hear that it's exactly this principle which has led some makers to do only ">handmade<" and not ">custom<" pieces.

Mike
 
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