Another Best Steel Thread...Edge Stability

flatface77

flatface77

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Oct 3, 2007
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After seeing so many "best steel" threads & noticing that edge holding is the almost unspoken criteria I decided to do my own. For my use & preferences the ability to take a very fine edge & not lose it immediately is at least as desirable as edge holding ability.

I like freaky edges & don't mind re-sharpening. Stain resistance, toughness, & ease of resharpening are lesser priorities. The ability to be re-profiled at very low angles is important too. I don't like steels that lose their hair-popping edge quickly, even if they do hold a usable edge forever.

I'm still on the fence over this "aggressive edge" stuff as I don't have enough experience with it. I had assumed it meant big, clunky carbides & micro-saw edges & wasn't interested. However, M390 is my favorite at the moment due to the fineness & quality of the edge my one knife in that steel took & I'm interested in similar steels like Elmax.

My short list of steels, based on all of this would be: M390, ZDP-189, VG-10, Elmax (for being compared to M390), & 12C27 (based on it's reputation for taking a great edge).
 
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The short answer is there aren't any.... ;)

That does depend on what you use the knives for though, if you really use them see above...

Getting both isn't really possible in a production knife, you would need to go custom.
 
Most of mine are folders & are, at best, light-duty EDCs. I put thin bevels on them & re-sharpen as soon as they stop shaving cleanly. I'm not afraid to use them for whatever but rarely have an excuse to. I'm all about edges & have gotten good enough at sharpening to have noticed the difference in the quality of edges I can put on knives in different steels.

I read a lot of Cliff Stamp's posts when I found this site a few years back & it got me to thinking more about the concept of edge stability, which particularly appealed to me.
 
crktm1612m said:
What's that CPM Rex stuff that gets really hard? That might be up your alley...
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I keep coming across references to it here. Looking foward to seeing it in a production folder. It sounds exotic as hell, but Spyderco has a sprint in Super Blue so Rex is a possibility. I've lately been plotting sending my production M390 blades off to have them pushed a few points harder. Priorities...
 
jeffphansen77 said:
Most of mine are folders & are, at best, light-duty EDCs. I put thin bevels on them & re-sharpen as soon as they stop shaving cleanly. I'm not afraid to use them for whatever but rarely have an excuse to. I'm all about edges & have gotten good enough at sharpening to have noticed the difference in the quality of edges I can put on knives in different steels.

I read a lot of Cliff Stamp's posts when I found this site a few years back & it got me to thinking more about the concept of edge stability, which particularly appealed to me.
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I bottom line here is that it won't matter what steel it is, if you cut stuff it will start to dull.

I can kill a hair popping edge in seconds, and that's in any steel I have seen sofar.
 
jeffphansen77 said:
I keep coming across references to it here. Looking foward to seeing it in a production folder. It sounds exotic as hell, but Spyderco has a sprint in Super Blue so Rex is a possibility. I've lately been plotting sending my production M390 blades off to have them pushed a few points harder. Priorities...
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I seriously doubt we will ever see any production blade in REX 121, it rusts like crazy, it's almost impossible to grind and good luck sharpening it...

Most makers won't deal with S90V or S110V due to the issues grinding it into knife blades....

Had one custom maker tell me he would rather hit his thumb with a hammer than make a blade in S125V..... Some other makers just start shaking their heads when you even bring up S90V.

And all of those are nothing compared to REX 121....
 
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There are times I'll give up pure wear resistance and the large "devil worshipping vanadium carbides" ( haven't used that line in ages. Thom Brogan began that one in his darksider days) in order to gain the tradeoff of smaller, but almost as hard Tungsten carbides, moly carbides, or other steels with combinations.

Some of my favorites here are Super blue, 52100, W1, O-1, and a few more. Some of them, like super blue, and 52100 might surprise users with their overall wear resistance in addition to their edge stability.
 
I seriously doubt we will ever see any production blade in REX 121, it rusts like crazy, it's almost impossible to grind and good luck sharpening it...

Most makers won't deal with S90V or S110V due to the issues grinding it into knife blades....
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Not even a Mule? It's a good sign for steel heads when there's stuff out that even custom makers won't grind. I remember when 440C brought bragging rights & ATS-34 was mind blowing with it's 1% carbon & all.

Bohler or Carpenter need to give me a 3rd gen PM mutant of 12C27 with 3% carbon that goes to RC 67 or so.

Some of my favorites here are Super blue, 52100, W1, O-1, and a few more. Some of them, like super blue, and 52100 might surprise users with their overall wear resistance in addition to their edge stability.
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I tend to forget how long it took for the industry to come up with a stainless that would take an edge anything like a good carbon steel blade. Despite rust issues I'm hassling my better half about getting the Caly 3.5 sprint for my own evil purposes.
 
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jeffphansen77 said:
Not even a Mule? It's a good sign for steel heads when there's stuff out that even custom makers won't grind. I remember when 440C brought bragging rights & ATS-34 was mind blowing with it's 1% carbon & all.

Bohler or Carpenter need to give me a 3rd gen PM mutant of 12C27 with 3% carbon that goes to RC 67 or so.
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Would you want to pay something like $500 for a Mule, and that's if you could get Sal to even talk about it.

Some of those other steels are more than wear resistant enough, I hear things like one drill bit per hole drilled, you know things are getting to the point of diminishing returns...
 
The Mastiff said:
There are times I'll give up pure wear resistance and the large "devil worshipping vanadium carbides" ( haven't used that line in ages. Thom Brogan began that one in his darksider days) in order to gain the tradeoff of smaller, but almost as hard Tungsten carbides, moly carbides, or other steels with combinations.

Some of my favorites here are Super blue, 52100, W1, O-1, and a few more. Some of them, like super blue, and 52100 might surprise users with their overall wear resistance in addition to their edge stability.
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Yeah Joe, it's a double edge sword to get that kind of wear resistance, as you know there is always a trade off when dealing with steel.
 
I think we passed the point of diminishing returns some time in the past decade & are just having expensive fun at this point. Most users can't tell the differences between the steels we debate about & certainly can't make distinctions about arcane qualities like edge stability. It's a small, half-crazed core that pushes this small section of the market.

Most makers won't deal with S90V or S110V due to the issues grinding it into knife blades....

Had one custom maker tell me he would rather hit his thumb with a hammer than make a blade in S125V..... Some other makers just start shaking their heads when you even bring up S90V.
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I know this about those particular steels. Do you hear the same things about M390 or Elmax? They may be too new at this point but I'm hoping they're easier to work with.
 
jeffphansen77 said:
I think we passed the point of diminishing returns some time in the past decade & are just having expensive fun at this point. Most users can't tell the differences between the steels we debate about & certainly can't make distinctions about arcane qualities like edge stability. It's a small, half-crazed core that pushes this small section of the market.



I know this about those particular steels. Do you hear the same things about M390 or Elmax? They may be too new at this point but I'm hoping they're easier to work with.
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I have customs in both ELMAX and M390 and hear they aren't bad at all to work with.
 
i myself dont see the point in making a knife with a steel that measures rc 70. i dont see why people cant make due with steel that are 58-64 or somewhere around that.

i realize that it wouldnt need to be touched up for a very long time, if ever. i kinda like touching up a blade, its peaceful for me.

anyway thats just my opinion.
 
The steel you listed with the highest "edge stability" is 12C27. Roman Landes uses the term for steels with low carbide fraction and very fine carbides that don't have a major issue with carbide tearout. Those other alloys don't have the sub-micron carbides, they are larger. You can't have a 12C27 ''mutant" with 3% carbon because 12C27 is designed not to have that leftover carbon for lots of cementite or chromium carbide formation. Mastiff listed some other candidates, you can see from their composition that they are not highly alloyed.
 
If toughness and ease of sharpening aren't that important to you, why not try a knife with a ceramic blade?
 
The steel you listed with the highest "edge stability" is 12C27. Roman Landes uses the term for steels with low carbide fraction and very fine carbides that don't have a major issue with carbide tearout. Those other alloys don't have the sub-micron carbides, they are larger. You can't have a 12C27 ''mutant" with 3% carbon because 12C27 is designed not to have that leftover carbon for lots of cementite or chromium carbide formation. Mastiff listed some other candidates, you can see from their composition that they are not highly alloyed
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Agreed. AEB-l, 13C etc are almost as good as 12C in that respect. The Super Blue with 2.5% tungsten is lower edge stability than the others you mentioned, but it gets better abrasive wear in non corrosive environments. It's all a trade off as Jim A. says and sometimes you have to go with what you like and deal with compromise.

In corrosive environments I might pick a steel from the stainless category that gives the best combination of wear resistance, edge stability, and corrosion resistance as it might be the best performer in those situations. Elmax looks pretty good there as it's super clean, has decent edge stability, and good to excellent abrasive wear resistance depending on the heat and final hardness. It would be another compromise of course as stainless steels in this category have much less edge stability than some mentioned. For it's class though it's edge stability is excellent due to it's purity, carbide size and carbides even dispersal throughout the matrix. Bohler steels aren't the only ones but Elmax made a good example. There will always be some sort of compromise.

It also illustrates the folly of attempting to just measure abrasive wear resistance and proclaim that steel as best.
 
The Mastiff said:
Agreed. AEB-l, 13C etc are almost as good as 12C in that respect. The Super Blue with 2.5% tungsten is lower edge stability than the others you mentioned, but it gets better abrasive wear in non corrosive environments. It's all a trade off as Jim A. says and sometimes you have to go with what you like and deal with compromise.

In corrosive environments I might pick a steel from the stainless category that gives the best combination of wear resistance, edge stability, and corrosion resistance as it might be the best performer in those situations. Elmax looks pretty good there as it's super clean, has decent edge stability, and good to excellent abrasive wear resistance depending on the heat and final hardness. It would be another compromise of course as stainless steels in this category have much less edge stability than some mentioned. For it's class though it's edge stability is excellent due to it's purity, carbide size and carbides even dispersal throughout the matrix. Bohler steels aren't the only ones but Elmax made a good example. There will always be some sort of compromise.

It also illustrates the folly of attempting to just measure abrasive wear resistance and proclaim that steel as best.
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There is always a balance or so it seems.
 
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