Another case of billing for a rescue...

[dougo83]

is it really two shots now, not just one.... thanks for the update.

Even though I have heard the same info, I wouldn't take that as concrete medical advice. Always consult a professional...

 

[dougo83]

We should maintain emergency personnel and resources that we can afford, and after that, people are at their own risk. Kind of like beaches and pools. They usually have a lifeguard during certain hours, after that, you are on your own.

This is no different than a seat belt law or anything else designed to "protect the public from themselves" It is designed for one simple outcome. REVENUE. They want the cash.

If SAR is basically volunteer, then the cost is ZERO. Yes, they need some safety and rescue equipment, but that is minimal. Radios, ropes and "biners" don't warrant $25,000 fines. Stop funding Helicopters. After the first couple of victims die, you can rest assured the ones that follow are idiots.[/QUOTE]

This is clearly from someone in no way associated with SAR. What about insurance? Training? Certification for team members? Travel costs? Vehicles? Radio towers? AD&D policies for team members? The cost is far from zero. When I looked into it, they told us each team member costs a few grand.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

But I do pay taxes, and some of those taxes go to SAR teams.

And YES I realize that radios, training and insurance cost $. My point was the SAR volumteers themselves are free (IF they are volunteers) A Chopper pilot costs $. Maintaining amanned outpost costs money.

Now, that being said, I understand you feel they are underfunded, which is part of my point, ONLY DO WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD.

Fonly, when I said "you play the game, you pay the price", I was not talking about paying with money.

If you want to venture out unprepared, you need to be ready for a not so pleasant outcome.

 

[Fonly]

This is clearly from someone in no way associated with SAR. What about insurance? Training? Certification for team members? Travel costs? Vehicles? Radio towers? AD&D policies for team members? The cost is far from zero. When I did it, they told us each team member costs a few grand.

Insurance is payed by fund raising. Training is donated, and some times also payed from fund raising. certifying comes from taking the training, for what its worth, I was required to get my own First aid training and my SAR group only offers certain training programs. travel costs and vehicles are also payed with from donations, fundraising. Also, some party's are beginning to install a fee with the group, in other words, ever person pays a certain amount either each year, or each month, most times its only 20-30 dollars a month, but thats another way to get some money for the team.

we dont use radio towers, there is a non profit group that provide a volunteer Radio service. most may not know this, but a lot of SAR groups aren't even on emergency freq's, up here TAC9 is the RCMP's, FD and paramedics radios channel, we just got access to that channel.

 

[Fonly]

And YES I realize that radios, training and insurance cost $. My point was the SAR volumteers themselves are free (IF they are volunteers) A Chopper pilot costs $. Maintaining amanned outpost costs money.

That is true, but most of the time a chopper pilot is provided from another Emergency organization. There aren't many SAR groups who can privately own, and operate a chopper.

Our heli is provided by Alberta heath care, in other words it belongs to the hospital. The group is called STARS, they provide a very rapid, reliable group of people who are great at working that chopper, but they are still funded, as an emergency group, and there for when we need them to come pick someone up, are being used for what they are there for.

I know its only been that last 10 years I think that canada has made people pay for the ambulance ride that takes them to the hospital when they have a severed arm. do you know how many people put them selves in horrible risk because they don't want to spend $150 on a ride in the ambulance?

Thats unfortunately what I think everything is going to come too. with the way things are going, I wont be surprised when there is a cost for even the police. Its happened with Paramedics, and it will only be a matter of time before SAR groups do it.

 

[Don Rearic]

Personally i am all for billing of rescues. Now before everyone grabs the tar and feathers and then burns me alive, please read WHY:

I think the only time someone is going to reach for the tar and feathers and the torches is when and if you say that everyone should pay for their rescue and the fees should be such that they lose their home or their way of life, etc.

Here in BC we have a never ending parade of IDIOTS that go into the ski hills unprepared. They choose to VIOLATE the LAW by going past the backcountry NO ENTRY signs (die to extreme terrain and avalanches). They they get lost or injured or stuck, call 911 on their cell phone and expect a heli pickup and a hot drink. They have ZERO kit with them, not even a heat sheet, and and has been shown over the years ZERO SURVIVAL SKILLS.

Part of this is the way your country treats its people! The same is happening in this country! I can absolutely throw rocks at Canada because I throw them at my own country constantly. The government promotes stupidity and slavery and then you are surprised when people act like ignorant slaves.

I AGREE with you, people can be completely stupid. No survival skills and no gear, no nothing. Why? The further you get away from every day survival living, from say before 1950 for many people, the more stupid people will become. I don't know about up there, but most people where I live use artificial logs in their damned fireplace and they have the fireplace just for looks or to screw a chick by, it's not for heat! The log is part paraffin and part sawdust so an idiot can light it without spilling his Manhattan whilst clutching a Viagra and Oxycontin Splendor.

Most people here can't even light a damned fire properly! I said before, do you know how incredibly RARE we all are? We hang out in here and we make friends and share all this stuff, we are such an extreme minority that we don't even matter man.

Now I am going to run you through. I don't want to be enemies with you, I have always enjoyed your posts except those regarding these issues and your attitude about SAR:

...so SAR shows up, which involves all the SAR volunteers (yes VOLUNTEERS - they do not get paid by taxpayers, only fuel reimbursement and SOME big equipment (heli etc) to have to leave work, or get woken up in the middle of the night and taken away form their families. Their lives get put in risk every time to go fetch these young idiots that flaunt the law. It costs MINIMUM $5000 CDN for a rescue callout, some rescues can go as high as $25,000CDN + when helis, quads, overnight command posts and portable shelters are involved.

I can't make you resign but I wish you would. You are just like a burned out cop who hates the people he serves and holds them in contempt after years of thankless service and wiping spit from your face, in a manner of speaking.

I don't want you to hate me, I have told other people in here certain things and they hate me to this day and they snipe at me whenever they get the chance and go behind my back and spoil other friendships I have made with people. Not paranoia, fact. I don't want that to happen but I have to tell you - resign! If you get a call in the middle of the night, you are not taken away from your family! You volunteered man! Every time this shit comes up you are bellyaching about all of the morons, idiots and assorted assvents you have to deal with, why in the HELL do you do it then? Have you ever mentioned someone that actually deserved what you did, ever? You're in it because you get some prestige out of it yet you resent the shit you have to deal with, you're not doing it out of altruism or to help your fellow man, no matter how rare you might think the worthy person is, you are doing it for the juice and it's time that you really admitted that because everyone else that reads your words knows this but they don't want to lose a friendship with you. You're doing it because you get to go out and play and now you are bitching because you have to go out and play, WTF???

Once rescued and back in the parking lot, the idiots hide their faces from the camera or tell the RCMP and SAR to F******** and shy away from any media on scene. Completely disrespectful of the people that risked their lives for them.

Yes, they are total pieces of shit, these people are not rare, you really have to accept this.

So yea, i say bill them (and in some cases bill the parents) for the rescue, BUT, only the idiots, and not the ones that go prepared and need rescue for medical or environmental reasons.

ok you can run the spears thru me now, as I'm sure this will be a hot topic.

I think you have tempered your views from last time. Perhaps with the assault on another American Citizen by government gone wild, maybe you will once again tone down your hatred of those you have volunteered to serve. You know, SAR is a lot like being a hired killer, you like to fantasize that you are only going to take out the bad guy which saves good people but you don't get to choose who you kill and you don't get to choose who to rescue.

 

[caine]

If I was charged 25000.00 I would make sure the gov. earned every cent.

 

[Don Rearic]

is it really two shots now, not just one.... thanks for the update.

I forgot to ask...if this is aimed at me about Epi-Pens, yes. As far as I know you give one Epi-Pen and at about the thirty min. mark if the EMTs are not there yet, you should have another one on hand to give a second one if ANY signs of problems occur.

If you or someone in your family uses an Epi-Pen, you should consult your PCP or Allergist, whomever does your RX Epi, ASAP.

 

[pvicenzi]

Thanks to the rescue people, the girl lives. In these times of states having financial difficulty, I'd rather see people get billed for rescue service, than have the service cancelled due to budget cuts.

 

[rkwallace]

Every time I have gone out climbing I have recognized the inherent risks and accepted I may die pursuing the hobbies I love. It is not incumbent upon anyone, private/public/government, to render aid for the unnecessary risks I take for pleasure. Everything in America is business and rescue should be no different. And yes, I know what it means to almost die "out there" and no I didn't expect Sam to come running to my rescue.

 

[revolution13]

+1 to bushman5 & primitiveman
Question though...if these things (so many are) unconstitutional, and backwards, and corrupt, etc. etc. than why arent you/we boycotting society as a whole...money and everything??? Why not put your survival/live off the land skills to use? Is not boycotting something the best way to fight for what you believe in? Why participate and FUND what is going on around us????

 

[PrimitiveMan]

You have no rights any longer and would not be able to "live off the land" even if you wanted to. Oh a few might make a stab at it, like the wingnut in the desert living in his cave of squalor and eating other peoples handouts, but go try to live like Richard Proenneke did and you are going to get hit with all manner of fines for not having building permits and taxes and....well, you know the deal.

I do whatever I can to vote against, not fund and not participate in any program that I think falls into that category.

 

[Bushman5]

I think the only time someone is going to reach for the tar and feathers and the torches is when and if you say that everyone should pay for their rescue and the fees should be such that they lose their home or their way of life, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------


Part of this is the way your country treats its people! The same is happening in this country! I can absolutely throw rocks at Canada because I throw them at my own country constantly. The government promotes stupidity and slavery and then you are surprised when people act like ignorant slaves.

I AGREE with you, people can be completely stupid. No survival skills and no gear, no nothing. Why? The further you get away from every day survival living, from say before 1950 for many people, the more stupid people will become. I don't know about up there, but most people where I live use artificial logs in their damned fireplace and they have the fireplace just for looks or to screw a chick by, it's not for heat! The log is part paraffin and part sawdust so an idiot can light it without spilling his Manhattan whilst clutching a Viagra and Oxycontin Splendor.

Most people here can't even light a damned fire properly! I said before, do you know how incredibly RARE we all are? We hang out in here and we make friends and share all this stuff, we are such an extreme minority that we don't even matter man.

Now I am going to run you through. I don't want to be enemies with you, I have always enjoyed your posts except those regarding these issues and your attitude about SAR:



I can't make you resign but I wish you would. You are just like a burned out cop who hates the people he serves and holds them in contempt after years of thankless service and wiping spit from your face, in a manner of speaking.

I don't want you to hate me, I have told other people in here certain things and they hate me to this day and they snipe at me whenever they get the chance and go behind my back and spoil other friendships I have made with people. Not paranoia, fact. I don't want that to happen but I have to tell you - resign! If you get a call in the middle of the night, you are not taken away from your family! You volunteered man! Every time this shit comes up you are bellyaching about all of the morons, idiots and assorted assvents you have to deal with, why in the HELL do you do it then? Have you ever mentioned someone that actually deserved what you did, ever? You're in it because you get some prestige out of it yet you resent the shit you have to deal with, you're not doing it out of altruism or to help your fellow man, no matter how rare you might think the worthy person is, you are doing it for the juice and it's time that you really admitted that because everyone else that reads your words knows this but they don't want to lose a friendship with you. You're doing it because you get to go out and play and now you are bitching because you have to go out and play, WTF???



Yes, they are total pieces of shit, these people are not rare, you really have to accept this.



I think you have tempered your views from last time. Perhaps with the assault on another American Citizen by government gone wild, maybe you will once again tone down your hatred of those you have volunteered to serve. You know, SAR is a lot like being a hired killer, you like to fantasize that you are only going to take out the bad guy which saves good people but you don't get to choose who you kill and you don't get to choose who to rescue.

aaaahahahahaha I don't hate ya Don R I got a ton of respect for you actually, been following your site for some time now. :thumbup:

I aint burnt out, i quit volunteering a while back . Mostly due to the fact that i was losing a ton of money and employer at the time took a dim view to me missing so much work as result of line searches.......


it still burns my hide though that SO many people here in BC go unprepared and then expect to call 911 and get a pickup. It smacks of irresponsibility, its unfair to the public and the teams and the spouses of the team members. Thats really my issue, and i think a hefty bill might change peoples attitudes about misuse of the service.

 

[Don Rearic]

aaaahahahahaha I don't hate ya Don R I got a ton of respect for you actually, been following your site for some time now. :thumbup:

I was sweating that one. You are one of the people that I respect in here and obviously enjoy reading your posts and find great value in them.

I aint burnt out, i quit volunteering a while back . Mostly due to the fact that i was losing a ton of money and employer at the time took a dim view to me missing so much work as result of line searches...

Placing yourself into another type of rescue situation trying to rescue other people is a bad thing. It sucks, actually.

...it still burns my hide though that SO many people here in BC go unprepared and then expect to call 911 and get a pickup. It smacks of irresponsibility, its unfair to the public and the teams and the spouses of the team members. Thats really my issue, and i think a hefty bill might change peoples attitudes about misuse of the service.

You know, I'm sure it's the same way up in Canada as it is here. The government wastes so much money on nonsense. What I mean to say is, it just pisses away money on things that are of basically no use except to give away grants to cronies of people in government, etc. What I would like to see are PSAs, Public Service Announcements, about traveling safely in the wintertime, basically have a bunch of PSAs about survival!

My country blabs a lot about the "rugged individualism" and "pioneer spirit" that made the country what it is and how we still have this today, which is a pant-load, of course. Some people have it, most don't. We have become a country of people so easily offended and hopelessly naive about so many things. Even after September 11, 2001 and the long list of incredibly destructive hurricanes with Katrina being Queen of Them All, our Red Cross and IIRC, The Dept. of Homeland Security, they basically put out a "BOB" list. A list of emergency items that you should have on hand, call it a "GO Bag" or whatever. "Bug Out Bag" was viewed to be too "militaristic" or whatever...funny coming from a government that even has armed Food and Drug Administration Agents. And in the original lists they left out knives because they were befuddled because they couldn't possibly suggest that the stupid cows they rule over have a knife in a kit designed to help you get through a disaster! They have since modified that after being ridiculed online in comment sections of websites, etc. I remember when all of that was going on.

I remember in the 70s and early 80s when I was a kid, we had PSAs about "R.I.F." which stood for, "Reading Is Fundamental." There is a reason I can remember it and I only remember that reading is importante! I remember the Schoolhouse Rock and other things that were basically educational PSAs.

People have become so politicized and dumbed down in so many ways here. We could do stuff like that with topics like gun safety and outdoor safety and survival. Wearing PFDs, Personal Flotation Devices, how to shelter in your car without basically committing suicide without the garden hose from the exhaust to the window - which killed four people in my state in as many days back around the winter of 2002 or 2003 when we had a blizzard here.

Sure, stupid people don't live long when the shit hits the fan. But, I mean, people are dying over the most retarded things now and while some might say, "Good! It's Natural Selection and cleans the gene pool." I don't think it's very productive really.

 

[mdauben]

So yea, i say bill them (and in some cases bill the parents) for the rescue, BUT, only the idiots, and not the ones that go prepared and need rescue for medical or environmental reasons.

On the surface this certainly sounds very reasonable and fair. The question is, how do you determine if someone was an "idiot"?

Obviously, some cases are so extreme and obvious that anyone would agree "Hey! He was an idiot!" but where do you draw the line? Do you use gear checklists to determine if the person was properly equipped? Do you confirm their "wilderness resume" to see if they have the knowledge and experience to tackle a certain trail? Does an apparently healthy 55 year old man in who has a heart attack and needs medevac get billed becuase he took an "unreasonable" chance by wandering into the wilderness and away from readily available medical support?

I guess part of my feeling on the issue is my strong opinion about personal responsibility. If I set off into the wilderness (for purely personal leisure purposes), I need to take responsibility for my own rescue if needed whether due to human error or act of god. In either case I placed myself in that situation by my own choices. So, I should take responsibility by saving myself, or by bearing at least some of the financial burden of relying on someone else to save me.

I am certainly not saying that we should disband all SAR groups and leave everyone to fend for themselves! On the other hand, I do feel that it is only right for someone who does need that SAR becuase they were taking part in a leisure time activity should bear some financial responsibility for a situation brought on by his or her own actions.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think the functional part of it is, it doesn't matter who is an idiot, moron or imbecile and who is smart and just had a piece of bad luck. It seems to be the trend that politicians and administrators are going to charge and fine whenever possible. I don't think anything else is going to matter in the end. If the trend continues, I don't expect normalcy, intelligence, decency or anything else from people like that. The very same people allow illegal aliens to flood the country and basically destroy our healthcare system to the point people are going to want socialized medicine because that's better than nothing...and yet they want to address this non-issue. And, it is a non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Bushman5]

On the surface this certainly sounds very reasonable and fair. The question is, how do you determine if someone was an "idiot"?

Obviously, some cases are so extreme and obvious that anyone would agree "Hey! He was an idiot!" but where do you draw the line? Do you use gear checklists to determine if the person was properly equipped? Do you confirm their "wilderness resume" to see if they have the knowledge and experience to tackle a certain trail? Does an apparently healthy 55 year old man in who has a heart attack and needs medevac get billed becuase he took an "unreasonable" chance by wandering into the wilderness and away from readily available medical support?

I guess part of my feeling on the issue is my strong opinion about personal responsibility. If I set off into the wilderness (for purely personal leisure purposes), I need to take responsibility for my own rescue if needed whether due to human error or act of god. In either case I placed myself in that situation by my own choices. So, I should take responsibility by saving myself, or by bearing at least some of the financial burden of relying on someone else to save me.

I am certainly not saying that we should disband all SAR groups and leave everyone to fend for themselves! On the other hand, I do feel that it is only right for someone who does need that SAR becuase they were taking part in a leisure time activity should bear some financial responsibility for a situation brought on by his or her own actions.

I dont know how we/they/police/SAR determines who is "qualified" etc etc etc . that debate is more a hot topic than billing for rescue......

here is two examples:

Person "A" goes snowboarding on a private skihill. The skihill owns the lands past the Boundary Markers and has clearly posted signs every ten feet saying NO ENTRY DUE TO EXTREME AVALANCHE HAZARD. Person "A" thinks hey, nice powder, and goes past the markers. Ski patrol yells at him to come back, Person "A" snowboards off to avoid the hefty ticket fine and banning from the hill. . Pretty soon he is in a ravine, and cannot climb out the 20+ feet of snow. Night is falling and he has only the clothes on his back his ipod. No garbage bag, no lighter, matches, firesteel, knife, food, water, trip plan filed etc etc.

Ski patrol dude checks the cars at the end of the night and there is still one in the lot. They call in SAR and go to the area where Patrol last saw the teen. They look all night in dangerous avalanche conditions. They find the kid whos near frozen to death and airlift him out. This scenario happens all winter here in BC

Person "B" is a french climber, with 20+ years of climbing big crags. He is in a remote area of the BC mountains. He has filed a trip plan with an expected due back time and date. He is equipped with a survival kit, food water shelter and the knowledge of how to survive. While climbing the crags the crag rock splits and he falls 14 meters, breaking his leg. He comes to, is in great pain but covers himself with a sleeping bag and radios for help, giving exact location. North Shore SAR longlines in via whirlybird and administers first aid, and preps him for long line extrication via Stokes litter and chopper.

This JUST happened yesterday here in BC

who do we charge. I want to see Person "A" charged, because they were negligent in prepping for the outdoors and strayed past clearly marked boundaries.

I do NOT want to see Person "B" charged because he was well equipped , filed a flight plan, has the wilderness skills and gear etc etc.

my 2 cents.

another possibility: i can take out rescue insurance to cover the costs of a rescue.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

And you stop checking for cars at the end of the night and go home. Person "A" spends the night in the ravine and either survives, or doesn't due to stupidity.

 

[Fiddleback]

Wow. This is just horrible. Drive everyone to live in the cities, and be afraid to go into the outdoors.

Hey. Maybe its not so horrible afterall. We'll have the countryside all to ourselves.

 

[Don Rearic]

Wow. This is just horrible. Drive everyone to live in the cities, and be afraid to go into the outdoors.

I actually think that is part of it, or to make the outing so generic and suburban that it doesn't matter.

Hey. Maybe its not so horrible afterall. We'll have the countryside all to ourselves.

And you will pay more taxes and fees for not going with the program.