Another ceramic stone question: Fallkniven

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Papilio

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Medium stones or rods made by Spyderco seem to wear at least a little. Although some users posted here on BF that their stones / rods last for decades.
Medium Lansky ceramic seems to be quite similiar to Spyderco so I guess the medium grit rods will wear, too.

I wonder about Fallkniven ceramics. I mean the gray ceramic DC3, DC4, CC4 and DC521 offer. The description says although they wear the surface will stay flat.

Apart from a need to resurface the stone to make it cut better: Has anybody noticed that the stone wears / dishes over time?
 
I think most folks who have perceived the stones as wearing have confused wear with flatness and nearly all sintered ceramics are sold in the as-fired state, which will exhibit a very very slight warp to them. Lapping them flat is a very expensive process from a business perspective on a product that already is made of expensive material, and impacts the surface finish which is the single largest factor in the finish they produce on steel. This is why despite being imperfect in its flatness (due to slight machining marks), the Spyderco ultrafine ceramic is so much more expensive than the fine (which is the same material in the as-fired condition.) It'll likely take you an hour or more of hand-lapping with lapidary diamond to get one completely flat and conditioned, but once done it's very easy to touch up.
 
I have a DC4 and I am happy with it. I read some complaints that the diamond plate wears out quickly, but the secret is to just use the weight of the blade. It will still do its job and last long(er).
Last time I used it on 14C28N and it did a great job.

I also have the Spyderco doublestuff, a good one as well, but there is no diamond plate, so sharpening might take a bit longer. I don't think the stones wear out, at least not in my case. I have a full sized Spyderco Medium and a full sized Ultra Fine, I use them a lot and they are still flat after three years.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I think most folks who have perceived the stones as wearing have confused wear with flatness and nearly all sintered ceramics are sold in the as-fired state, which will exhibit a very very slight warp to them. Lapping them flat is a very expensive process from a business perspective on a product that already is made of expensive material, and impacts the surface finish which is the single largest factor in the finish they produce on steel. This is why despite being imperfect in its flatness (due to slight machining marks), the Spyderco ultrafine ceramic is so much more expensive than the fine (which is the same material in the as-fired condition.) It'll likely take you an hour or more of hand-lapping with lapidary diamond to get one completely flat and conditioned, but once done it's very easy to touch up.
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So any ceramic stone that seems to be worn was out of flat from the beginning? In other words: Should s.o. check the flatness after some use the stone seems to have worn because it is no longer flat?

I don't have to worry that I will wear out a Fallkniven ceramic in the meaning there won't be any ceramic left (to overcolor a little bit)?

Lapping is nothing I want to do right now as my stones are flat enough. If they remain that way I am ok.

My intention was if it is possible to say which one has a longer lifespan? Spyderco Medium or Fallkniven ceramic (not diamonds)? If I understand you correctly I will not wear out any of them?


kobold said:
I have a DC4 and I am happy with it. I read some complaints that the diamond plate wears out quickly, but the secret is to just use the weight of the blade. It will still do its job and last long(er).
Last time I used it on 14C28N and it did a great job.

I also have the Spyderco doublestuff, a good one as well, but there is no diamond plate, so sharpening might take a bit longer. I don't think the stones wear out, at least not in my case. I have a full sized Spyderco Medium and a full sized Ultra Fine, I use them a lot and they are still flat after three years.
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I think you won't have a problem with the Ultra Fine ever.
I know that diamond plates have a short lifespan when used with pressure. What about your ceramic side? Apart from becoming smoother / less rough after some use?
 
Correct. You're unlikely to ever wear out a sintered ceramic stone, only blunt the surface and need to periodically recondition it to strip the surface layer of grit to expose fresh cutting surface/restore the surface texture you want to provide the correct cutting action/polish. One of the great things about sintered ceramics is that you can take a single stone and condition both faces differently and it'll behave like different grits. You can pretty easily adjust the finish just by using different diamond grits. Loose grit lapping generally will provide much better and faster results than using a diamond plate. Lapidary diamond grit can be picked up pretty economically, and you don't need more than a pinch of the stuff to lap most stones.
 
Papilio said:
...The description says although they wear the surface will stay flat...

Apart from a need to resurface the stone to make it cut better: Has anybody noticed that the stone wears / dishes over time?
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I don't see how the stone can wear and still stay flat. That sounds like marketing doublespeak to me. If they had said the stone will stay flatter longer than waterstones or natural stones, I could have bought that, but wearing and staying flat sounds like they are defying the laws of physics, the laws of nature, and who knows how many federal, state, county, and local laws?!?!

I've still got my first real sharpening tool, a Sharpmaker from the mid-80's or so. The stones got a lot of mileage on them back then, and the triangular gray stones have worn 0.050"/1.3 mm. flat spots in the centers. I understand that those edges will wear a lot more quickly than a flat stone would, but the point is the stone accumulated wear and they are no longer flat. They are certainly useable, and they could be flattened with some serious elbow grease, but they are not going to stay flat under enough use.
 
Khromo said:
I don't see how the stone can wear and still stay flat. That sounds like marketing doublespeak to me. If they had said the stone will stay flatter longer than waterstones or natural stones, I could have bought that, but wearing and staying flat sounds like they are defying the laws of physics, the laws of nature, and who knows how many federal, state, county, and local laws?!?!

I've still got my first real sharpening tool, a Sharpmaker from the mid-80's or so. The stones got a lot of mileage on them back then, and the triangular gray stones have worn 0.050"/1.3 mm. flat spots in the centers. I understand that those edges will wear a lot more quickly than a flat stone would, but the point is the stone accumulated wear and they are no longer flat. They are certainly useable, and they could be flattened with some serious elbow grease, but they are not going to stay flat under enough use.
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The abrasive on the surface wears and blunts but does not shed grit appreciably. Simple as that.
 
I think some folks have reported here in years past, that the medium Spyderco ceramics might wear a little quicker than their Fine/UF hones, especially at the corners of the triangular rods where pressure is focused during sharpening. Under heavy pressure at the corners, I'd suspect much of that wear is probably due more to chipping out of the ceramic, rather than simple abrasive wear. Such reports have usually come from people trying to use them for reprofiling jobs, using heavy pressure and a LOT of strokes (thousands for a single job). Those hones really weren't intended for that. Under normal use as a light maintenance tool, they'll last a very long time. I've been using mine as a touch-up tool for years and haven't noticed any visible wear on any of the hones.

I wouldn't worry either about Fallkniven's medium ceramic. They don't wear very fast at all. I say this, after attempting a resurfacing of mine (DC4) using a diamond hone. Takes a LONG time to remove much material from the surface of those hones, even when grinding with a diamond hone.
 
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Obsessed with Edges said:
I wouldn't worry either about Fallkniven's medium ceramic. They don't wear very fast at all. I say this, after attempting a resurfacing of mine (DC4) using a diamond hone. Takes a LONG time to remove much material on the surface of those hones, even when grinding with a diamond hone.
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That's good to know. As Spyderco discontinues it's Bench Stones I was thinking about buying the medium stone as long as it is available. I already own Fallkniven's DC521 so there is no real need for the 302M. But should the 302M last longer significantly than a DC521 (and I am talking just about the ceramic side) I would think again.
I use mine as a touch up stone. I should be safe then :)
 
I'm surprised to hear they're discontinuing them! I had found a source of a very interesting ivory-translucent sintered alumina ceramic that I'll have to look into digging up again as a potential offering, though I most prefer sintered silicon carbide.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I'm surprised to hear they're discontinuing them! I had found a source of a very interesting ivory-translucent sintered alumina ceramic that I'll have to look into digging up again as a potential offering, though I most prefer sintered silicon carbide.
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Yes, it did not expect that, too. All three 8''x2'' stones won't be available from 2024.
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95333

They now sell a 3 stone set called Profile Stones (CNB, Medium, Fine), all three stones can be purchased separately.
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/category/new-product-reveal

That ivory-translucent sintered stone sounds interesting. Is this stone - as you say translucent - a ultra fine hone like a translucent Arkansas?
 
Papilio said:
So any ceramic stone that seems to be worn was out of flat from the beginning? In other words: Should s.o. check the flatness after some use the stone seems to have worn because it is no longer flat?

I don't have to worry that I will wear out a Fallkniven ceramic in the meaning there won't be any ceramic left (to overcolor a little bit)?

Lapping is nothing I want to do right now as my stones are flat enough. If they remain that way I am ok.

My intention was if it is possible to say which one has a longer lifespan? Spyderco Medium or Fallkniven ceramic (not diamonds)? If I understand you correctly I will not wear out any of them?




I think you won't have a problem with the Ultra Fine ever.
I know that diamond plates have a short lifespan when used with pressure. What about your ceramic side? Apart from becoming smoother / less rough after some use?
Click to expand...

So far so good, but I mostly use my full sized stones at home.
 
Papilio said:
Yes, it did not expect that, too. All three 8''x2'' stones won't be available from 2024.
https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=95333

They now sell a 3 stone set called Profile Stones (CNB, Medium, Fine), all three stones can be purchased separately.
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/category/new-product-reveal

That ivory-translucent sintered stone sounds interesting. Is this stone - as you say translucent - a ultra fine hone like a translucent Arkansas?
Click to expand...
The translucency is very faint but present. As-fired they're ultra-fine but as I previously mentioned, you can basically turn them into different grits by conditioning the face with different lapidary diamond grits.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Correct. You're unlikely to ever wear out a sintered ceramic stone, only blunt the surface and need to periodically recondition it to strip the surface layer of grit to expose fresh cutting surface/restore the surface texture you want to provide the correct cutting action/polish. One of the great things about sintered ceramics is that you can take a single stone and condition both faces differently and it'll behave like different grits. You can pretty easily adjust the finish just by using different diamond grits. Loose grit lapping generally will provide much better and faster results than using a diamond plate. Lapidary diamond grit can be picked up pretty economically, and you don't need more than a pinch of the stuff to lap most stones.
Click to expand...

Can confirm, did this with my white spyderco fine stone and lapped one side to ultra fine with a glassy finish by using a worn out "fine" diamond stone to lap it with. I believe it to be even finer than the 306uf as a result of the lapping.

OP, I really enjoy Fallkniven's unique ceramics (grey/black). They seem to be more delicate than spyderco and definitely wear faster, but you can almost build a bit of a slurry when using dish soap. It's a really nice progression stone. I've been using the same one for years and outside of a few chips in the edges of the stone it's still flat enough for me to be perfectly functional. I really enjoy the grit, which is coarser than the spyderco fine stone in my experience and more like a medium grit.
 
SwissHeritageCo said:
Can confirm, did this with my white spyderco fine stone and lapped one side to ultra fine with a glassy finish by using a worn out "fine" diamond stone to lap it with. I believe it to be even finer than the 306uf as a result of the lapping.

OP, I really enjoy Fallkniven's unique ceramics (grey/black). They seem to be more delicate than spyderco and definitely wear faster, but you can almost build a bit of a slurry when using dish soap. It's a really nice progression stone. I've been using the same one for years and outside of a few chips in the edges of the stone it's still flat enough for me to be perfectly functional. I really enjoy the grit, which is coarser than the spyderco fine stone in my experience and more like a medium grit.
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If you're able to build up a slurry with it it makes me suspect it may not actually be sintered and may just be a dense hard-bond vitrified stone. I've never once seen a true sintered stone develop a slurry.
 
Papilio said:
Medium stones or rods made by Spyderco seem to wear at least a little. Although some users posted here on BF that their stones / rods last for decades.
Medium Lansky ceramic seems to be quite similiar to Spyderco so I guess the medium grit rods will wear, too.

I wonder about Fallkniven ceramics. I mean the gray ceramic DC3, DC4, CC4 and DC521 offer. The description says although they wear the surface will stay flat.

Apart from a need to resurface the stone to make it cut better: Has anybody noticed that the stone wears / dishes over time?
Click to expand...
I've been using a brown spyderco medium pocket stone daily for almost a year and it's showing no signs of wear yet, but l mainly use it for touching up my swiss army knives. It's perfect for them. I keep the stone in a leather slip. It does build up metal quickly but even a pencil eraser takes care of that for the most part.
 
The best eraser I've found for cleaning sintered stones is a Staedtler Mars Plastic, but any brand of "white plastic" eraser will do well.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
If you're able to build up a slurry with it it makes me suspect it may not actually be sintered and may just be a dense hard-bond vitrified stone. I've never once seen a true sintered stone develop a slurry.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's definitely different than spyderco ceramics in this way. You can see it in pictures of used fallkniven ceramics, there will usually be chips out of the edges along the border so it wouldn't surprise me if they turned out not to be sintered. It also kind of burnishes through extended use and becomes finer, unlike my spyderco ceramics. I still find them very useful and if I were relegated to using a single grit to maintain a knife it would be the fallkniven ceramic side. Easy to clean and coarse enough to remove a nice bit of material while also delivering a razor sharp edge.

All in all, a super useful but delicate stone in my experience.
 
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