Sal Glesser
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double post.
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 05-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 05-11-2001).]
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Another... er... "interesting" copy...
- Thread starter Razoredj
- Start date
Elvislives
Gold Member
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That's got to be a real downer Mr. Glesser to have to retire your knife to remove the stigma from a cheap copy.
And I'd imagine that after your knife is retired they copycats continue to rake in the dough for their cheap crap.
Brandon
And I'd imagine that after your knife is retired they copycats continue to rake in the dough for their cheap crap.
Brandon
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I am more than a little confused on this issue Sal.
A friend of mine asked me to recommend a good quality knife like I always seem to have handy for a price point.
Now let me state right up front, the price he wanted to pay, would not get much. He asked for a folder of about 3.5-4" for no more than £30! I know it can be done, but he wanted a knife like my Military! Duh...
Well he was disgusted at the price of the real thing and is one of the people most likely to get a knock off because he wants the look without the price tag.
Well is he likely EVER to buy a Military? Yeh, right, when hell freezes over!
Same can be said of computer games.
1. Game is £34.99, I quite like the look of the game, but can't justify the price. So I don't buy it.
2. I get a copy of said game for £5.
The company does not loose out because I could not afford the product in the first place.
Sure with other games that I could get for £5 that I think are worth the price, I DO PAY FOR!
Back to knives, my friend would not even pay £44.99 which is the going rate for a Spyderco Endura over here (he did not want to order over the net). It was 50% over his budget, which started off at a mere £15- £20.
How can Spyderco loose business from this? I can understand that people with the cash to buy a Spyderco might by the fake by accident and be unhappy with the knife, but how stupid are people?
Now I HATE knock off blades, but I must own up to owning one. It is a 440a grade steel copy of a 9" cold steel master tanto. The sheath is real leather and the fit and finish of the blade is quite good. The edge takes a nice edge and holds it as well as one can expect from this steel, so the heat treat is ok. Now I can't offord the real knife and due to a distinct lack of interest in all things tanto I am very glad I did not get the real thing.
So I am still confused
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
A friend of mine asked me to recommend a good quality knife like I always seem to have handy for a price point.
Now let me state right up front, the price he wanted to pay, would not get much. He asked for a folder of about 3.5-4" for no more than £30! I know it can be done, but he wanted a knife like my Military! Duh...
Well he was disgusted at the price of the real thing and is one of the people most likely to get a knock off because he wants the look without the price tag.
Well is he likely EVER to buy a Military? Yeh, right, when hell freezes over!
Same can be said of computer games.
1. Game is £34.99, I quite like the look of the game, but can't justify the price. So I don't buy it.
2. I get a copy of said game for £5.
The company does not loose out because I could not afford the product in the first place.
Sure with other games that I could get for £5 that I think are worth the price, I DO PAY FOR!
Back to knives, my friend would not even pay £44.99 which is the going rate for a Spyderco Endura over here (he did not want to order over the net). It was 50% over his budget, which started off at a mere £15- £20.
How can Spyderco loose business from this? I can understand that people with the cash to buy a Spyderco might by the fake by accident and be unhappy with the knife, but how stupid are people?
Now I HATE knock off blades, but I must own up to owning one. It is a 440a grade steel copy of a 9" cold steel master tanto. The sheath is real leather and the fit and finish of the blade is quite good. The edge takes a nice edge and holds it as well as one can expect from this steel, so the heat treat is ok. Now I can't offord the real knife and due to a distinct lack of interest in all things tanto I am very glad I did not get the real thing.
So I am still confused
------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Sal, I know you speak from experience on this, as your company is probably victim to the most ripoffs of any, but...exactly what models have you discontinued due to ripoff? The only Spyderfaux's I've seen are the "Eagle" plastic stud Delica, Endura, & Harpy, - 2 of which are still among your best sellers I'm sure. I don't disagree that they have hurt your sales, but what models have been given up as a result?
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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First of all, the existence fo the copy hurts sales. Especially if it is in the showcase alongside of the original, as is usually the case.
one example (of many); The dealer will often use the original to "sell" the customer. When the customer balks at the price, the dealer then says, "well, this is a copy and not as good" but it's only 1/3rd the price". The dealer's margin is 3 times as good on the copy so it pays.
If you've been watching for a while, as we have, you will notice many models that are gone, Benchmades Emerson folder is a good example. Very popular, copied, gone. This hurt Benchmade and Emerson. Benchmade spent hundereds of thousands of dollars just advertising this model. Those dollars were "ripped off".
The "Cross Stix" just about killed the "Crock stick". The "Manilla Folder" surely helped Pacific Cutlery go under. There are many examples.
As far as Spyderco goes, we've already had to change the Endura, Delica and Rescue once. Next year will show more. The Walker is gone. The new Endura, Delica, Rescue are off at least 50%.
The Ladybug copies are in every gas station for $2 against our $25. These include signs that say "Compare to Spyderco at $27, our price $2.95". Needless to say, Ladybugs won't last too long against that.
The entire S & W line is made up of copies, mostly of Spyderco patterns.
"Eagle" (There is really no eagle, it is just a name that many Chinese companies use to dupe Americans) is making fortunes on my designs...way more than we make.
The Cricket has suffered significantly as the "Dragon egg" steals our thunder.
These are just some examples. You are welcome to believe otherwise, if you choose. It is the "otherwise" thinking that supports the copies and hurts the originals.
Spyderco invented a thing called a "pocket clip". At one time, we were the only company that made a knife with a pocket clip. Look around...you think that hasn't hurt our sales?
Also keep in mind that Spyderco is forutunate in that we do have some strong marks and have spent fortunes to defend them, others may not be as fortunate.
Unless CRKT has a good design patent on the Kasper, AND they are willing to spend the thousands it will cost to defend it, IMO, this design will suffer for the copy. Time will tell.
Will it change? probably not. Americans are suckers for a cheap copy...often thinking that it is "Smart" buying.
Just my opinion.
sal
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 05-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 05-11-2001).]
one example (of many); The dealer will often use the original to "sell" the customer. When the customer balks at the price, the dealer then says, "well, this is a copy and not as good" but it's only 1/3rd the price". The dealer's margin is 3 times as good on the copy so it pays.
If you've been watching for a while, as we have, you will notice many models that are gone, Benchmades Emerson folder is a good example. Very popular, copied, gone. This hurt Benchmade and Emerson. Benchmade spent hundereds of thousands of dollars just advertising this model. Those dollars were "ripped off".
The "Cross Stix" just about killed the "Crock stick". The "Manilla Folder" surely helped Pacific Cutlery go under. There are many examples.
As far as Spyderco goes, we've already had to change the Endura, Delica and Rescue once. Next year will show more. The Walker is gone. The new Endura, Delica, Rescue are off at least 50%.
The Ladybug copies are in every gas station for $2 against our $25. These include signs that say "Compare to Spyderco at $27, our price $2.95". Needless to say, Ladybugs won't last too long against that.
The entire S & W line is made up of copies, mostly of Spyderco patterns.
"Eagle" (There is really no eagle, it is just a name that many Chinese companies use to dupe Americans) is making fortunes on my designs...way more than we make.
The Cricket has suffered significantly as the "Dragon egg" steals our thunder.
These are just some examples. You are welcome to believe otherwise, if you choose. It is the "otherwise" thinking that supports the copies and hurts the originals.
Spyderco invented a thing called a "pocket clip". At one time, we were the only company that made a knife with a pocket clip. Look around...you think that hasn't hurt our sales?
Also keep in mind that Spyderco is forutunate in that we do have some strong marks and have spent fortunes to defend them, others may not be as fortunate.
Unless CRKT has a good design patent on the Kasper, AND they are willing to spend the thousands it will cost to defend it, IMO, this design will suffer for the copy. Time will tell.
Will it change? probably not. Americans are suckers for a cheap copy...often thinking that it is "Smart" buying.
Just my opinion.
sal
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 05-11-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sal Glesser (edited 05-11-2001).]
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Not this American. Spyderco is to damned good a company to buy a knock off. The service is great and the products have great quality control. Losing a finger on a knife with a bad lock is not worth the few dollars I would "save" on a cheap piece of garbage.
Zach
Zach
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Good reply, Sal.
I appreciate the facts told and seen from ground zero. Seldom does one hear the inside story told plainly and honestly.
No wonder Spyderco has got so many hardcore fans.
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Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.
I appreciate the facts told and seen from ground zero. Seldom does one hear the inside story told plainly and honestly.
No wonder Spyderco has got so many hardcore fans.
------------------
Make Love your strongest weapon. Compassion your shield and forgiveness your armour.
Sal, I'm continuing this discussion because I think it's a topic all of us on the forums need to know more about. After all, who among us can honestly say we have never purchased a ripoff? I have a bunch Spyderfaux, SOGfaux, Cold Steelfaux, etc. You should be pleased to know that after being here for a while, I finally took the plunge and bought a Delica 98 as my first quality cutlery, and have since spread the wealth among more Spydercos, CRKTs, Cold Steel, etc. Im still a sucker for a good deal, but I look to closeouts & used sales of quality rather than POS. No more of my money goes to ripoffs.
I do not deny that ripoffs hurt your sales, but I also agree that there is a part of the population that would rather use their teeth or keys than spend more than $5 on a pocket knife, so they dont count as lost sales. I apologize for supporting the ripoffs with my past purchases but as someone who has been converted I can say that until you hold it in your hand, you dont know what good fit & finish is, what sharp really is, and what quality is. Most of the population will never appreciate the difference, for the same reason that most people will use a Bic their whole life, without ever caring about the quality of a Pelican pen.
So, I understand and support your position, and Im not trying to tweak you, but lets talk about your specifics.
If youre talking about the CQC7, I believe that the reason BM is no longer producing it has more to do with their arrangements with E. Emerson, not copies on the market. I offer as evidence the fact that Ernie is still making & selling them.
Ive always heard that the S&Ws were ripoffs, but the only thing they look like to me are the Boker Top-Lock, not any Spyderco models. Except of course that shameless Dyad ripoff they just put out. As an aside, they are one of the worst of the breed in my opinion, since they produce ripoff junk under the guise of a (formerly) respected name in American sporting goods.
The changes you made to the Delica, Endura, Rescue were innovations. The steel, reversible clip, ergonomic Volcano pattern. Dont sell yourself short, I think you would have likely made the changes regardless of ripoffs they were major improvements. Could the sales drop in the models have to do with the fact that they are older patterns, and the market is on fire right now with new models every month from lots of makers, Spyderco included?
Pocket clip. Yes, the clip (and the hole) was a MAJOR innovation. Along with major steel improvements, the biggest leap forward for cutlery in the last half of the 20th century, if not further. But you know what, somewhere along the line one person decided it was a good idea to use a length of string to keep his shoes on his feet. Someone figured out that eyeglasses could be held on your face with your ears. Someone else decided it would be a good idea to put a pocket clip on a pen. and so it goes. Todays innovation becomes a part of life tomorrow.
You have changed the face of this business forever. In a different age, you would have made much more money for much longer. Unfortunately, in this global economy with cheap manufacturing and no honor among (trademark) thieves, your innovations have been absorbed into the status quo of the business.
Sal we all value you, your company and its products, and your valuable contributions to this forum. Thanks for participating.
I do not deny that ripoffs hurt your sales, but I also agree that there is a part of the population that would rather use their teeth or keys than spend more than $5 on a pocket knife, so they dont count as lost sales. I apologize for supporting the ripoffs with my past purchases but as someone who has been converted I can say that until you hold it in your hand, you dont know what good fit & finish is, what sharp really is, and what quality is. Most of the population will never appreciate the difference, for the same reason that most people will use a Bic their whole life, without ever caring about the quality of a Pelican pen.
So, I understand and support your position, and Im not trying to tweak you, but lets talk about your specifics.
If youre talking about the CQC7, I believe that the reason BM is no longer producing it has more to do with their arrangements with E. Emerson, not copies on the market. I offer as evidence the fact that Ernie is still making & selling them.
Ive always heard that the S&Ws were ripoffs, but the only thing they look like to me are the Boker Top-Lock, not any Spyderco models. Except of course that shameless Dyad ripoff they just put out. As an aside, they are one of the worst of the breed in my opinion, since they produce ripoff junk under the guise of a (formerly) respected name in American sporting goods.
The changes you made to the Delica, Endura, Rescue were innovations. The steel, reversible clip, ergonomic Volcano pattern. Dont sell yourself short, I think you would have likely made the changes regardless of ripoffs they were major improvements. Could the sales drop in the models have to do with the fact that they are older patterns, and the market is on fire right now with new models every month from lots of makers, Spyderco included?
Pocket clip. Yes, the clip (and the hole) was a MAJOR innovation. Along with major steel improvements, the biggest leap forward for cutlery in the last half of the 20th century, if not further. But you know what, somewhere along the line one person decided it was a good idea to use a length of string to keep his shoes on his feet. Someone figured out that eyeglasses could be held on your face with your ears. Someone else decided it would be a good idea to put a pocket clip on a pen. and so it goes. Todays innovation becomes a part of life tomorrow.
You have changed the face of this business forever. In a different age, you would have made much more money for much longer. Unfortunately, in this global economy with cheap manufacturing and no honor among (trademark) thieves, your innovations have been absorbed into the status quo of the business.
Sal we all value you, your company and its products, and your valuable contributions to this forum. Thanks for participating.
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I think most of us do agree with you, Sal. RH makes a good point -- and I don't think it can be stressed enough -- that Spyderco is primarily responsible for changing the face of the industry and bringing us the current archetype of "tactical folder": a locking, one-hand-opening, pocket-clip-equipped knife.
It's unfortunate that having the best product doesn't always guarantee the best sales. (Just ask the folks who used to make Betamax VCRs.) Price is a big part of where every consumer sits on their personal demand curve, and those who don't qualify as super-knife-educated (like those of us who frequent this board) won't see the benefits of higher price and the higher quality it buys.
Good companies like Spyderco and its contemporaries continue to innovate, and that keeps them going in the face of (as Hank might put it on the political board) "second-handers" and other rip-off artists. But it also benefits the rest of us Knife People -- and we thank you for that.
-Razor
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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
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Sorry if anyone thought I was having a pop at Sal or Spyderco. For the record I would NEVER by a fake now. I never have or ever would by a fake Spyderco. I guess my view is a little simplistic, but if a person is not in the price abaility to own the REAL deal, then he leaves without a knife or a knock off. Spyderco would never have seen his bucks.
The issue on selling the junk next to the real thing is something I had not considered. In the UK we have the dealers who sell the real and no jusnk and those that sell the fakes. I suppose its different in the States. That has been my experience and I was just relating that.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
The issue on selling the junk next to the real thing is something I had not considered. In the UK we have the dealers who sell the real and no jusnk and those that sell the fakes. I suppose its different in the States. That has been my experience and I was just relating that.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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- 11,691
Hi RH. Not to banter, because there are many views of the hub when looked at from the outside of the wheel.
FYI, The CQC7 was dropped from the Benchmade line becuase the knock offs were killing the line and Lester wanted Ernie to participate in the cost of legal battle. Ernie did not want to so now Ernie makes the model and sells one 100th of what Benchmade did (if that many).
The S & W line in the past 5 years included copies of the Endura, Delica, Dragonfly, Walker and Rescue as well as the new Dyad & Dyad jr.
One could banter "lost sales" all day from many points of view. One can also argue shoelaces and windshild wipers. In the end, all good ideas will last.
In my opinion, after having seen and felt the effect of "knock offs" in more than one industry over 40 years of business, "knock offs" are detrimental to the original. They are produced by people that do not care about the product or the industry. They have no interest in the commodity other than to make money based on another's efforts, designs and advertising.
You have your opinion.
Why don't you ask CRKT whe they think about the Kasper copy? I would be curious to hear the reply.
sal
FYI, The CQC7 was dropped from the Benchmade line becuase the knock offs were killing the line and Lester wanted Ernie to participate in the cost of legal battle. Ernie did not want to so now Ernie makes the model and sells one 100th of what Benchmade did (if that many).
The S & W line in the past 5 years included copies of the Endura, Delica, Dragonfly, Walker and Rescue as well as the new Dyad & Dyad jr.
One could banter "lost sales" all day from many points of view. One can also argue shoelaces and windshild wipers. In the end, all good ideas will last.
In my opinion, after having seen and felt the effect of "knock offs" in more than one industry over 40 years of business, "knock offs" are detrimental to the original. They are produced by people that do not care about the product or the industry. They have no interest in the commodity other than to make money based on another's efforts, designs and advertising.
You have your opinion.
Why don't you ask CRKT whe they think about the Kasper copy? I would be curious to hear the reply.
sal
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"In my opinion, after having seen and felt the effect of "knock offs" in more than one industry over 40 years of business, "knock offs" are detrimental to the original. They are produced by people that do not care about the product or the industry. They have no interest in the commodity other than to make money based on another's efforts, designs and advertising. "
Very well said Sal, that is one of the main reasons I would never get a fake nowerdays. They may be cheap, but only a fool could think they were even 1/10th the quality of a Spyderco. Perhaps that is the problem? They would be hard pressed to know the difference as they don't know knives?
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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
ouch. I knew I was going out on a limb by arguing industry specifics with an insider like Sal.
I had no idea how blatant S&W has been, I guess I only see the SWAT's out there.
Your points are well taken Sal, thanks for the spanking. (I'm sure I had it coming)
I had no idea how blatant S&W has been, I guess I only see the SWAT's out there.
Your points are well taken Sal, thanks for the spanking. (I'm sure I had it coming)
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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Hi RH. No "spanking". Just sharing knowledge. That's how we humans learn. dialectic is always good. Nothing wrong with searching for truth.
sal
sal
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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Sal really has no axe to grind here -- I'm sure he would be happy to say, "Cheap copies don't hurt our sales at all; everybody knows quality when they see it." The only reason he doesn't say that is it isn't true.
Cheap knives have a legitimate place in the market but rip-offs don't. They could make cheap knives without that black plastic thing right where the hole would be on a Spyderco, and without copying the blade and handle shapes too. There is no legitimate reason why cheap knives have to look just like Spydercos, and there are still some cheap knives that don't. If you want a cheap knife buy an honest cheap knife -- for one thing, you're bound to get a better deal for your money -- copies are rip-offs in more ways than one. Compare the copies to other knives that sell for the same price and you'll see what I mean.
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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
Cheap knives have a legitimate place in the market but rip-offs don't. They could make cheap knives without that black plastic thing right where the hole would be on a Spyderco, and without copying the blade and handle shapes too. There is no legitimate reason why cheap knives have to look just like Spydercos, and there are still some cheap knives that don't. If you want a cheap knife buy an honest cheap knife -- for one thing, you're bound to get a better deal for your money -- copies are rip-offs in more ways than one. Compare the copies to other knives that sell for the same price and you'll see what I mean.
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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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Another point of interest that helps explain the mind set.
A "knock off artist" doesn't want to copy a model that is not already popular or research has indicated that it is likely to become very popular. Promoting a model cost more than tooling up. That promotion is a cost they would try to avoid, along with design development costs.
(I say "artist" because they are very good. They know if there are patents or not and they have learned how close they can get to a patent without infringing).
sal
A "knock off artist" doesn't want to copy a model that is not already popular or research has indicated that it is likely to become very popular. Promoting a model cost more than tooling up. That promotion is a cost they would try to avoid, along with design development costs.
(I say "artist" because they are very good. They know if there are patents or not and they have learned how close they can get to a patent without infringing).
sal
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I have been Lurking on this board for the past 2 weeks, I can honestly say I have never bought a cheap knockoff.
My Knives have always been Victorinox Lockblades or Spyderco's. I recently have purchased a Kershaw Black Out and a Cold Steel Recon Tanto.
I consider any knife that sells for under $20 a Piece of junk.... very few knives under that price have quality steel and finishing.
You see these Clowns with thier cheap knives and bragging about how after a year they have either lost it or it is broke, I work as a Paramedic and have seen what happens when a Lock Prematurly Release's.... partially severed fingers or worse.
For Work I use a Spyderco Rescue, it is easy to disenfect and clean.... hell I have even boiled it after it became contaminated with no ill affects.
I will continue to support quality knife makers in my Price Range (up to $200). And be happy doing it.
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Proud To Be CANADIAN
My Knives have always been Victorinox Lockblades or Spyderco's. I recently have purchased a Kershaw Black Out and a Cold Steel Recon Tanto.
I consider any knife that sells for under $20 a Piece of junk.... very few knives under that price have quality steel and finishing.
You see these Clowns with thier cheap knives and bragging about how after a year they have either lost it or it is broke, I work as a Paramedic and have seen what happens when a Lock Prematurly Release's.... partially severed fingers or worse.
For Work I use a Spyderco Rescue, it is easy to disenfect and clean.... hell I have even boiled it after it became contaminated with no ill affects.
I will continue to support quality knife makers in my Price Range (up to $200). And be happy doing it.
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Proud To Be CANADIAN
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IMO people that buy this crap get exactly what they deserve. I guess P.T. Barnum had people figured out pretty well.
It is a shame the ones that make this stuff don't get what they deserve. That would be to go out of business because people refused to buy what they make.
It is a shame that products like this hurt honest manufacturers that make excellent knives.
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Keith
AKTI Member #A001338
It is a shame the ones that make this stuff don't get what they deserve. That would be to go out of business because people refused to buy what they make.
It is a shame that products like this hurt honest manufacturers that make excellent knives.
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Keith
AKTI Member #A001338
Westicle, don't let price alone be your determining factor of quality. By your logic, I could put a $20 pricetag on a $2.99 POS and you would consider it quality (?).
I own several knives that were purchased at or less than $20 (either on closeout sale or retail) that are good quality - Buck, CRKT, Victorinox, Opinel, Frosts of Sweden.
Some folks like to brag about how much they spent on something, I would prefer to brag on the DEAL I got!
I own several knives that were purchased at or less than $20 (either on closeout sale or retail) that are good quality - Buck, CRKT, Victorinox, Opinel, Frosts of Sweden.
Some folks like to brag about how much they spent on something, I would prefer to brag on the DEAL I got!