another forge floor/flux queston

J. Neilson

J. Neilson

Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
3,621
Yes, I'm back into this damascus stuff hard and heavy. Still trying to clear up some of the annoying little things though. The first time the liner of my two-burner venturi was completely eaten by flux that ran off the fire brick floor. Now I have relined the forge (thanks again Jerry) and in addition to the fire brick floor I cut some of the brick into 1/4" by 1/2" slices and cemented them round the brick floor (except for the front). Making a barrier for the flux. Now today after forge welding for about 7 hrs. I have holes in the floor where the flux has eaten almost straight down through the brick. At least the kaowool is OK.:rolleyes:

What are some of you guys using for floors? Anything different? Or am I just using too damn much flux? At least the damascus came out nice.
 
I am not sure I understand the design. Some folks put a thick layer of kitty litter in the bottom on the brick and scrape the crud out every now and then. Others use a heavy stainless pan with a layer of sand/litter to catch the crud.
One of my favorite forges has no bottom at all. It stands on its own tripod and has a box of kitty litter sitting 4 feet below it. No one has yet succeeded in dropping anything into it and burning it up.
It is a 12" pipe stood vertically on end. I saw it back in North Carolina somewhere.
It does sound like you are using too much flux. I use anhydrous borax and apply as much outside the forge as possible. (using a flour shaker over a cardboard box. The clean stuff can be put back in the powder shaker. The old crap inside the forge is on its way to the trash. When applying it inside the forge I use a 3 ft long spoon hammered from a piece of 1/2" square stock. Usually I dip my hot spoon in the powder in the box next to the forge and tap it where it needs to go on the parts. The vast bulk of the flux goes on outside the forge and the hot metal makes most of it stick to the metal right off.
It is fun isn't it! ...Ken
 
I don't actually put any borax on in the forge. I have a spoon and use that to spread an. borax flux on a table next to the forge. Then when the flux is bubbling on and running off the billet, this is what's eating the floor. Hope that helps.

Thanks Jerry. I probably will. George has offered an open afternoon for a visit to make another forge similar to the welding forge he has. Now I'll just have to work on a 3rd one for makome...RIGHT.:rolleyes:
 
I have a pan I made of heavy SS. (This is what the stuff should be used for)
I fill it with kitty litter. It has lasted over a year so far.
 
Ok I tried the kitty litter on the forge floor this morning. I only worked it for a couple hours but, the day is young yet. The litter seemed to work well, but after awhile the flux and litter kinda turned into a slurry. So, I scraped it out with a little scraper I made (like in Ed Fowler's Q&A in last months Blade)and put more in the forge using a tin can and the spreader. Kinda sounded like I filled it with "pop rocks". :D Is this bacilly how you fellas with the kitty litter are doing it?

I also found a flour sifter in Tess's cupboard (sorry honey) and used that to spread the flux, trying to use alot less than I have been. Saved alot of flux with it too. Thanks for the idea Ken.
 
You really should try the ss pan J. Just pull it out, dump the kittyt litter, refill it and put it back.
 
j. You got to be using way to much Borax. My welding forge is going on 2 years since relining and all I use on the floor is regular half fire brick with kitty litter on the edges. It does eat thru my bricks it just builds up on them. I was doing a canister weld a few week ago and when I took it out it had a 1/4" thick piece of flux attached to it.
The 14" piece of pipe from Larry will be perfect for your forge. Now you just got to make plans to come on up.
 
The pipe sounds great George, thanks. Just gotta order the parts now.

I tried the layer of kitty litter and had kitty litter and melted flux stuck to my billet. So I'd end up having a pool of flux and melted litter on the floor that the billet would sit in. Didn't do much for my heating either.
:mad:
Maybe I'm the only one who is actually putting my billet on the floor of the forge? During the last weld and draw kept the billet off the floor and it seemed fine. Is this the trick? Just use the floor to catch "drippings"? Of course, I'm still using tongs so sitting there with the tongs in front of the forge bites. I'll have to try mig welding a handle onto the billet and using the extension rack again. It's just annoying that the billet/handle weld has to be redone repeatedly. I haven't seen a full billet done yet that the handle didn't have to be re-welded a few times. And I use to mig weld for a living. I did make a severe effort to use less flux. Ken's sifter tip helped there. Also, saved alot of flux this way. I was always told to flux the snot out of billets but, that was when I was using coal and it didn't create as much of a problem.

Hey Peter, did you just buy some stainless steel sheet for your tray or did you find one somewhere?
 
J. Neilson it sounds like you are using soft firebicks on the floor of your forge, have you tried slicing a thin slab of hard fire bick and using it on your forge floor, the flux shouldnt eat thru it very easy, maybe.
 
I'm using the yellow (hard) splits for the floor. I only use the white (soft) bricks for mini-forges. Maybe they just make 20 Mule Team Borax real tough in PA (or the bricks wimpy).

Ow, my head's starting to hurt.
 
I have tried alot of different materials to try to save my soft fire brick. Every thing from cold rolled sheet metal to ceramic tiles. The best things I have found so far is what is called a welding brick. You can get them at centaur forge. Here is a link:

http://store.yahoo.com/centaurforge/0197a.html

The other thing that i am using now is a 0.040 thick sheet of stainless. It is a bit thin, and it warps/bends when you take it out of the forge, but you can smack it with your hammer to straighten it. Plus when you rap it with the hammer, a bunch of the solidified borax comes off.

The welding brick will get eaten away over time, but not near as fast as soft fire brick. I have never tried to cut a hard fire brick, but that sounds like a good idea too.

The other thing I do is remove the SS sheet from the forge after I have the billet welded. Then I continue on with drawing the billet to length, cut, restack, put the SS sheet back in, and weld. That will help to keep the flux out of the forge.

I don't flux during drawing the billet. Have you been? Does anybody else? If you are fluxing during drawing, that might be why you are having such a problem. I find myself doing about 5 minutes of welding to every 20 minutes of drawing.

Oh yeah, don't even try plain old steel sheet metal to line your forge. Once you reach welding temp, your billet sticks to the sheet metal. Hummm, imagine that. I thought I would have been smarter than to try it but I didn't realize what i did until my billet was welded to the sheet metal.:D :mad: :D
 
Hi,
Laredo brings up an interesting point.
Most folks usually don't flux after the billet is welded up. Say you are starting a 10 layer billet. Heat, Flux and then weld. Then when you are drawing it out to full length, no flux needed during the drawing heats. Then you can A) squeeze a folding line, grind side clean, fold, flux,and heat or B) cut billet, grind touching surfaces clean, weld or wire billet back together, heat, flux, and heat to forge welding temp again, then repeat for all as needed.
I have several firebrick chunks laying in the bottom of my forge that are higher than the kitty litter. That keeps the "kitty poop" off my metal. Yes, occasionally scrape out mess and reapply. The stainless pan would make it even easier. I am too lazy to make pan. But it would be cleaner. You could put a few stainless ribs in the pan to keep your billet up out of the goo.
At a Dollar type store you can find some surprisingly small flour sifters and applicators. Then your long suffering wife can have hers back.
Enjoy, Ken
oops forgot to add: Make one of your layers about 3 feet long. We call that a handle.:D Easier than welding and allows easy use of a roller stand.
 
I use a SS pepper shaker to apply my Borax. I put a very fine coat of Borax on when I am drawing out a billet. J. when you come down we will make damascus together. If you want come down On a Saturday and leave on Sunday. Also remind me to give you the bricks that I use.
 
Sounds good George. I was hoping to do a canister while I'm there. I don't have any damascus scrap (at least not enough) but, I have a 2" by 2" square that I've been filling with small high carbon sraps. I was hoping to give this a while, just gotta get some powder.

I have been fluxing during my draws. I'll either try it light or cut it out today. This weekend has been three days of damascus forging. Basically trying to tweek out these gas forge bugs I'm having. Thanks for all the help guys, I'll let you know how today goes.
 
Don't worry about the powder I have 20# each of the 1084/4600 and 1084. We can weld up chainsaw chain in it, go for pratice. Bring your scraps too and well put them in the same canister. We can put nickel in between the layers of chain, this will give it more contrast.:cool: :cool: :cool:
 
The solution is very simple. Build a verical forge. In the vertical the floor is just a round piece of ceramic or glass wool that is coated with ceramic high temp lining paint.
When it gets flux built up on the floor just take the top off, cut a new floor, paint it and go back to work. This takes 30 mins or so. If you take the billet out to flux it you are taking a chance on scale and decarb between the layers. The vertical forge can be found on Don Foggs page. I have tried 3 differnt forge set ups (two store bought and one home made). The one I built myself and it works better than any I have had. It has been in my shop for 6 years now. I have re-lined it once and re-floored it twice. The floor makes NO contact with the billet... thats the secret.

Just my .02 cents worth.
 
Thanks Darrel. Today was a cross of that idea, "Not letting the billet touch the forge floor". It worked well. Once I got the billet welded onto a stick I cut an inch or so off my "stick" stand so when I put the billet into the forge it was basiclly on a incline from the edge of the forge opening on. There was a hell of alot less mess. The flux doesn't seem to really run off the billet unless it's in contact with the floor. I did clean the floor/kitty litter out a couple times but, I think that was more residual flux from the last two days. The day went smoothly except for one stint where the stick came loose and didn't want to stay rewelded. With any luck I'll have a nice blade of 350 layers 1084, 5160, L6, low carbon & nickle. Tried a different pattern, too. Hope it worked out.
 
If the handle is breaking off the billet.
Make sure you have a full penatration weld. The butt weld just keeps working itself apart.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top