Another in the long list of noob questions

D

dfarm

Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
358
After reading a bunch of posts about backyard quenching oils, I read the noob sticky looking for information about steels, without much luck.

So, my noob question is, What is a good steel for a beginner to use? (I have only made 3 blades from nicholson files and did ht in my makeshift coal forge and quenched in atf like the videos on youtube with so-so results).

I want to explore the hobby some more and would like to be able to turn out a servicable blade without spending too much money. I understand that it is always ideal to use known stuff(steels, quench oils, ht ovens) all of that stuff is expensive to buy just to see if I like the hobby.

I am looking for a simple steel that will make a good user blade while responding well to less complicated ht methods. My idea is that if I can find steel that will work well for me and the tools I have available to me now, I can make more knives instead of saving money to buy tools, real quench oil, ect. For the price of a bucket of quench oil, I could probably buy enough steel to make about 50 blades or more. My plan is to master my methods on one kind of steel before branching out to other alloys and methods.

To sum up a post that got too long real fast, I am looking for a steel that will respond well to the backyard ht methods. Another method I could try is sending my blades out for HT, but that is more money (how much does it cost anyways?) but would definately turn out a more consistant product.


Sorry for the long post, let me know if something isn't clear, I'll try to explain what I mean better.

Thanks
 
1084 doesn't require a long soak or super fast quench. It is the go-to steel for what you're asking for. It is for sell in the sell section on this forum. It makes a great blade too.
 
1084 is difficult to find in some sizes. You can also use 1080 or 1075 with the same methods and best probability of success.

There is a steel sellor in Yakima, a VERY nice guy name of Kelly Cupples who sells a lot of steel to people. This will save you on some shipping costs. Send him an email and ask him for a current price list. He'll help you out. "octihunter (at) charter.net". Remove the obvious spaces, etc....
 
Yes 1084. However, Nicholson files seem to do very well with backyard HT. I can't tell you why, but they just do. I use 01 almost exclusively, with an oven HT, including a pre critical soak, a pre quench soak, ect. I read about everything Kevin, and Mete' post relating to 01, and try to follow what they say about working with it. But now and then, just for the helluvit, I do a blade from a Nicholson file, and HT it with a very simple backyard method, and get a very good blade as a result. Red-orange in dim light, quench in a mix of motor oil, thinned with diesel fuel, and even triple temper using a propane torch bringing the polished steel color to dark brown. I then soft back it in a shallow pan of water. It goes against most all metallugical reasoning, but it works, and produces a blade that holds a very good edge, that lasts very well. I made one for a buddy, and he skinned, and dressed 3 deer, and two hogs before resharpening. I don't understand it myself, and I do not sell these, but there seems to be something about Nicholson file steel that allows this to work. It may have something to do with their HT, and what I do afterwards. I grind, no forging, and only heat one time to red-orange, and air cool to anneal. That is enough to allow drilling holes with a good cobalt bit. I normalize after grinding to reduce warp. If you're just doing a blade occasionally, and not careing to get really serious yet, you may be doing better than you think, but it might pay you to try 1084, and compare. In fact, I would strongly suggest that you do. 1084 is probably the best of the simple steels, if using simple methods. Try, and compare.
 
I always recommend 1084 for a starter steel. 1070-1075 can be used about the same.
Here is some info from past posts I made concerning why 1084 is one of the best,and simplest steels to work with.

----.83% carbon is the eutectoid. For an empirical study, 99.17% iron and .83% carbon is the true eutectoid steel. For practical forging steels, 1084 is the eutectoid steel.

What all this means in HT is that the transformation point is the lowest, and it has the simplest HT. At .83% carbon, steel reaches solution at 1333F.If you heat it above this point and cool it down gradually,it will convert from the austenite formed above the solution point,into alternating layers of ferrite and cementite, as it crosses 1333F on the downswing. This structure is called pearlite.

Now,Heat 1084 to about 1500F and hold for enough time to make sure it is fully at that temp. Quench in a fast rate quenchant and (if all goes right) it will miss the pearlite nose, and convert into martensite, staring at around 450F. Because there is no shortage of carbon (hypo-eutectoid), the steel converts fully...prety much all at once....with no retained austenite.
Because there is no excess of carbon ( hyper-eutectoid), there is no problem with carbides needing enough time to get into solution and reform on cooling.-------


I posted a dance analogy a while back, I'll try and find it.
Found it:
The eutectoid point in steel is .83% carbon, so 1084 is eutectic steel.The critical point for eutectoid steel is the lowest on the curve. If you raise the carbon content ,or lower it ,the transformation point goes up. For most situations in HT of a blade, about 50-100F above this critical point is a good temperature to austenitize the steel. Most blade steels have a soak temperature from 1475F to 1525F.

Now, to complicate things, the carbon has a real square dance party when it is above the critical point. In the case of hypo-eutectoid steel it has to run from one partner to the next , because of all the available iron. In hyper-eutectoid steels, it has to play musical chairs, and if it can't find a chair ( too much carbon -too little iron) it just hangs out with the other carbon atoms over at the punch bowl. At the end of the dance, as the austenite cools below the transformation point the carbon gets to go home with the iron atoms it was dancing with. These lucky foursomes become Fe3C ( iron carbides) called cementite. The wallflower iron in the hypo eutectoid steel becomes ferrite, which can only be truly happy Massachusetts and California. The carbon in hyper- eutectoid steel are all a bunch of swingers.The dancers go home in groups, and depending on how fast they leave (cool down at quench) the ones who mosey out to their cars become pearlite, the ones that stay and smoking cigarettes and chatting for hours become bainite, and the really hard core folks rush out and jump in their cars to beat the traffic and become martensite. So the steel usually becomes a mix of structures.

Back to real metallurgy:
To allow the carbon to completely diffuse in hypo-eutectoid steel, and for the carbides to dissolve in hyper-eutectoid steel, you have to hold (soak) the steel at the austenitizing temperature for a little while. About 5-10 minutes for simple carbon steel is enough. The temperature is lowered a bit as you move away from 1084, not because the transformation point is lower (it is higher), but because you will be giving it a little more time to get the carbon situated. Since grain growth occurs as a result of time and temperature, making the time longer necessitates lowering the temperature. So 1050 and 1095 are held for 5 minutes at 1475F and 1084 is held for one minute at 1525F.

Stacy
 
I like W1, as the name implies it is a water hardening steel. Nicholson files are made from 1095 / W1 / or W2. (whatever is cheapest at the time i'm sure;))I prefer W1 becuase it's so simple to work and harden. A 10% Brine solution and an interupted quench gets it past that pearlite nose and sets the stage for full martensite transition. :thumbup::D the only problem is you have to forge it, becuase all i can find it in is drill rod.
 
Thanks guys, I'll try to find some 1084 when I need sizes that can't be found in files. Maybe someday I'll turn one out thats good enough to post pictures of.
 
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