Another newbie question, different style though.

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lechatchileh ariber

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Nov 4, 2014
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Hi there, I don't see a newbie questions thread, please direct me if there is.
My question may have been addressed somewhere here in the past;
What is the difference in effect on the blade by smashing it vs sharpening.
I'm wondering if there is something to be able to be sharpened (by hand on japanese and natural water stones) to extremely fine razor edges (for lack of words) if you guys have ever tested the sharpness of a jewish slaughter knife, keep its edge smooth through work (meat cutting) and not get damaged by an accidental knock on a bone.
To me this kinda sounds like an oxy-moron but a freind told me that because of the difference of strong and hard this may be possible.
Thank you!
 
I've read both of your questions a few times, and just don't understand what you are asking.
 
I second that... please clarify your statement or question or whatever it is so it can be properly answered.
 
If I understand the question correctly - how does a knife stay sharp/retain its edge? Toughness vs Hardness.

I believe it has more to do with the geometry of the edge.

A thin "extremely fine razor edge" may be good for shaving but won't last long cutting tough material and may even chip when encountering obstacles such as bone.

A CONVEX edge provides more strength to the edge enabling it to retain it's sharpness and resist chipping, especially when striking objects like bone.

It may not be 'extremely sharp' but it's 'sharp enough' for the task at hand.
 
We usually refer to this trait as hard vs tough. Each steel is different. Grain refinement is important. Crystalline structure is important (ie bainite vs tempered martensite). The shape of the blade is important. These parameters are optimized for the task at hand.
Earlier, in history, many blades were sharpened by peening. This would be done on the softer steels and bronze. It is commonly referred to as work hardening.
 
Or are you asking about the initial forming of the blade shape: Forging(smashing) vs. stock removal(sharpening)?
If so, there are many threads that address this question, and it's my understanding that there is no difference in the way the blade is shaped, the characteristics of the final edge holding ability come from the type of steel used and the quality of the heat treatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong, experts....
 
I guess the best thing would be to describe what I envisage as my finished product.
I am a kosher slaughterer. We sharpen our knives with waterstones. When we are starting a new blade usually we start with a #250 japanese, moving on to #1000 and then #6000 for the smooth sharp polish (I use an angle of ~25 degrees) after that I move on to a natural black stone for a finer polish (and I believe it adds a bit of sharpness too) after that I go to a greenstone for a slippery smooth glassy finish (it can split a hair down its length) The objective is to have a knife that will cut quickly, and be so smooth that you pretty much don't even feel the cut (I've cut myself in the past). So I need a blade that will be able to get that sharp and that smooth. Between every animal we check it to make sure its still sharp, still feels like glass and hasn't got the slightest nick or imperfection. More often than not we take it for a few quick strokes on the polishing stone.
Now honing especially by hand and to these measures, can take a lot of time and we have to be constantly honing to keep that edge at the extremes of sharp and smooth.
My question is if it is possible to have a knife which is easy/quick to hone and still keep up a sharp edge against the meat cutting and an occasional hit to the bone.
Thank you very much for all of your input.
 
lechatchileh ariber said:
I guess the best thing would be to describe what I envisage as my finished product.
I am a kosher slaughterer. We sharpen our knives with waterstones. When we are starting a new blade usually we start with a #250 japanese, moving on to #1000 and then #6000 for the smooth sharp polish (I use an angle of ~25 degrees) after that I move on to a natural black stone for a finer polish (and I believe it adds a bit of sharpness too) after that I go to a greenstone for a slippery smooth glassy finish (it can split a hair down its length) The objective is to have a knife that will cut quickly, and be so smooth that you pretty much don't even feel the cut (I've cut myself in the past). So I need a blade that will be able to get that sharp and that smooth. Between every animal we check it to make sure its still sharp, still feels like glass and hasn't got the slightest nick or imperfection. More often than not we take it for a few quick strokes on the polishing stone.
Now honing especially by hand and to these measures, can take a lot of time and we have to be constantly honing to keep that edge at the extremes of sharp and smooth.
My question is if it is possible to have a knife which is easy/quick to hone and still keep up a sharp edge against the meat cutting and an occasional hit to the bone.
Thank you very much for all of your input.
Click to expand...


I'm guessing this is for big critters like beef and not poultry ?

Does the steel have to be stainless ?



If you make the bleeding cut from the inside out, you shouldn't be hitting bone ?
 
12345678910 said:
I'm guessing this is for big critters like beef and not poultry ?

Does the steel have to be stainless ?



If you make the bleeding cut from the inside out, you shouldn't be hitting bone ?
Click to expand...

Different sizes for chicken and bigger animals. I'm talking now about beef because that's mainly where we have to repolish it every one or two.
Stainless would be nice, however we always dry our knives after use so its not a first priority.
Jewish law mandates cutting from the outside in, with a continuos slicing motion.
We only have to cut through the air and food pipes, and very rarely will we actually graze the bone. Yet we see that the knives are losing their glassy smoothness from the meat/skin alone.
 
The only current manufacturers that I know are jewish people;
Some of the names are lublinsky in israel www.lublinsky.co.il
In america there's a guy named moshe yurman, I think he makes them himself. There is also isamar kosherknife.com but I think his steel is a little soft (hones quite quick and dulls just as fast) unless he's improved his quality since I bought mine.
I don't know what steels they use.
Then we have the two 'godfathers' of kosher knives, j.d miller (I believe he made some tools for the us military in WWII), and mr vitkin, who both died with their recipies and techniques (nobody wanted to pay their prices), I've personally never had a knife from either of them.
 
I think the best thing you could do would be to get a set of paper wheels and a cheap buffer to put them on. I had a friend who worked in a slaughter house and this is what they used. Buy decent knives but don't break the bank. Use them, sharpen them until they're too flimsy and get a new one. With some practice you can get a knife hair-whittling sharp quick(less than 5mins easy) on paper wheels. Time is money when you're on the clock and when you're spending 20mins restoring the edge on your knife after each animal or two the boss surely notices. Shouldn't be hard to justify the equipment. Buffers are $40(you don't need a high end one) and wheels are around the same. Done.

Also, if there are certain cuts that put your edge in danger more than others I'd have a dedicated knife for that. Then I could preserve the edge on my main/breaking knife for gliding through meat. I've butchered a good few deer but definitely not slaughterhouse quantities so take my advice for what it's worth.

Here are the wheels:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/8-Razor-Sharp-System/G5937

This thread has all the info you need to know on paper sharpening wheels and more:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ing-wheels-when-your-time-is-important-to-you
 
Last edited:
lechatchileh ariber,

I took a look at the lublinsky website. It looks as if those are standard production knives, although I couldn't find anything about steel type. I'm not really sure if there is a steel that is capable of maintaining a mirrored edge while processing an entire animal. I could be wrong though. When I skin and clean an animal, I usually stop at about 600 grit and strop. This leaves a courser edge that just seems to keep cutting. Now I'm not sure if Jewish law mandates your knives being sharpened to the extent that you do, or if the law mandates that your knives be made by Jewish people, but there are a lot of makers on here that do a lot of work with some high end steels that may have the characteristics you are looking for.


-Adam
 
I'm only doing the actual slaughter with this knife, the rest of the cutting we do with regular stuff. The slaughter knife generaly retains the sharpness, and its just the beautiful smoothnes of the blade that needs a quick touch up, usually 20-30 seconds, and at the end of the day we touch up the sharpness.
The knives can be made by anyone, just the cut has to be done by a jew.
So I'm looking for a knife whichI won't need those touch ups, but when I need to sharpen it it shouldn't take too long.
 
If you're wiling to use a non stainless steel

try a W1 or W2 blade

They take a fine edge that seems to retain a toothyness that cuts flesh well

but they don't have the carbides that stainless does so it sharpens more easily compared to them.


It will take some extra care on keeping dry.


That's my opinion, try others and compare
compared to normal production knives, a good one will blow you away
 
JG Custom Metal Works said:
Oh boy, you really gone and done it now count.

Time for another toothy edge v polished edge for cutting flesh/meat war

:D
Click to expand...
I guess you've translated it for me :)
I have no opinion on that, however I do know that a toothy edge will tear as opposed to slice. And jewish law mandates a polished edge.
if those teeth can't be felt though, under the careful scrutiny of the nail, it should be fine.
Where would be a good place to get like a 4 or 5 by 1 or 2 inch, piece to try out?
 
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