another Santoku (cheap)

[UnknownVT]

Earlier I tried a very famous name forged Santoku -
a Sabatier no less -
BUT this was a Sabatier made in China(!)
and cost less than $12 from WalMart -

please see - Sabatier 7" Forged Santoku

My impressions were not very favorable - that Santoku did just about everything right - except being able to cut well
which brings us right back to the old saying (which I hate) you get what you pay for.......

Being a slow learner - I was wondering around a local Target Store and saw this thing -

It was priced at $5.99 - being a sucker I could not resist.....

From my previous lesson - that $12 WalMart "Sabatier" forged Santoku did not cut well because the blade was not ground thinly enough to the edge - so despite working on the blade for hours sharpening it and giving it a good secondary relief bevel - it could slicing hanging paper really well - but still did not cut through things well - simply not good enough in the kitchen.

Once bitten....
I tried to look for one that was ground thinly all the way to the edge - well that's difficult when the knife is in a blister pack, that one cannot open in the store - but I looked carefully and compared the 3 that were on the peg - this one almost looked as if it did not have a cutting final bevel, it was that narrow - whereas the other two had noticably wider bevels.

The narrow bevel told me either the edge was very obtuse, or the blade is ground very thinly to the edge..... which was it?
- at $6 I was willing to risk it - since Target has a no fuss returns policy.

Slicing paper -
oh-oh - it did, but no where near as well as my own kitchen knives.

So I gave a few strokes on the V-hone crock-sticks sharpener (fine white alumium oxide round rods ~ 22deg/side)....

Good, it wasn't because the factory edge bevel was obtuse - under magnification I could see the honing was right to the edge - which meant the factory edge had to be equal to or more acute than the V-hone angles.

So why was the paper slicing only so-so?

Because the steel did not form a very clean edge - poor edge stability.....
the first few strokes on the V-hone gave an edge full of chips!

After over 100 strokes per side - the edge was still pretty rough with chips and hints of fold-over.

After over about 200 strokes/side I finally got an edge that looked pretty respectable - it still has a few chips but no where near as bad as when I first honed it a few times.

Edge scanned at 150dpi - this would probably be about 1.6-2.1X life-size depending on the monitor and settings

see how thing/narrow the final cutting bevel is? (~22deg/side) - that confirms the blade is ground very thinly to the edge, and the tip is where this blade is the thickest.

Edge scanned at 600dpi - probably about 6-8X life-size

Tip and mid-section - those are 1/16th inch markings on the ruler and 3/16" grids on the paper.

Back of packaging -

I have obvious severe doubts about the quality (or lack of) of the steel.

BUT it appears with a bit of diligent (hard) work - lots of simple honing on fine V-hone crock sticks - I can get the knife to be pretty respectable.

Obviously the real test is when I use it on food over a period of time to see whether the "junk" steel can hold up in usage.

But at $6 it was worth trying
and it may seem that I don't learn my lessons?

--
Vincent
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[UnknownVT]

Sabatier 7" Forged Santoku
My impressions were not very favorable - that Santoku did just about everything right - except being able to cut well
which brings us right back to the old saying (which I hate) you get what you pay for.......

Obviously the real test is when I use it on food over a period of time to see whether the "junk" steel can hold up in usage.

But at $6 it was worth trying
and it may seem that I don't learn my lessons?

Just a quick follow-up -

I just diced some onions with this Chefmate Santoku - and it did fine - good control - the right degree of sharpness and cutting through - I am actually pleasently surprised at how well it did.

I think it did better than one of my favorites the original 5" Chicago Cutlery Walnut utility/boning knife 62S..... perhaps not quite as good as my $300 David Boye 6" BDS chef's knife - but that's not bad at all -
pretty darned good if you ask me.

So sharpness and cutting ability is good - no, very good - after having done some substantial honing on V-hone crock sticks.

How about edge holding/damage - I sliced through corrugated cardboard against the grain - did about 6 full slices - and the edge under 30x magnification showed no damage at all along the full length where it cut the cardboard - again not severe but much better than I was expecting considering how badly chipped the edge was at the beginning.

My guess is that the factory edge was probably very poor - full of chips - - I wish I examined the edge before my honing -
my initial few strokes obviously did not get rid of those chips
nor even after over 100 strokes/side -
only after over about 200 strokes/side did the edge start looking respectable with only few chips -
just a bit more honing, and the edge now looks close to perfect and now cuts very well at least for my relatively few tests.

For now I'm very pleased......

--
Vincent
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[Cliff Stamp]

Looks like a nice knife, full grind right to the edge, can't ask for more than that. Yeah the initial edge is usually rough, they sharpen them on grinders and such. A few passes on a coarse benchstone will reset it readily. These knives tend to be on the soft side so they bend readily. If just used on soft foods though you can keep them very sharp with just crock sticks once a week or so. Seems like a good deal for $5 to me. Any comments on the scallops, functional or decorational?

-Cliff

 

[UnknownVT]

Looks like a nice knife, full grind right to the edge, can't ask for more than that. Yeah the initial edge is usually rough, they sharpen them on grinders and such. A few passes on a coarse benchstone will reset it readily. These knives tend to be on the soft side so they bend readily. If just used on soft foods though you can keep them very sharp with just crock sticks once a week or so. Seems like a good deal for $5 to me. Any comments on the scallops, functional or decorational?

Many thanks for the very timely comments, and question....

First I am not that skilled in kitchen knife work (but I do know when a knife is good )

Dicing onions - initially was slicing - I found that the 1/4 onion stayed up as opposed to the slices falling (I slice from small end toward middle for safety) - which meant the blade face did not stick - so I was able to lift the blade out without disturbing the slice(s).

Cheese... slicing Cheddar - did stick to the face - however the release felt a bit better (definitely not enough to justify the kullens) - for example it was definitely better than the Boye 6" BDS chef's - about the same as the much narrower Chicago Cutlery Walnut 62S utility/boner (there is less face, and it is shallow hollow ground).

However remember Cheddar cheese slices fell off on the Kershaw RJ Martin Groove

I agree - I very much suspect it is some pretty cheap/junky stainless steel -

But most of the kitchen knives I really like are relatively soft steels (the Boye BDS is an exception) - I think for me it's the design and blade geometry that seem more important, and not necessarily the steel hardness, although edge holding is obviously desireable -

.... again most of my favorite kitchen knives are not known for edge holding either - but I seem to get along with them fine - they seem to hold an edge well enough for my usage - so I only have to touch up may be once or twice a year
(the common denominator seems like they can be easily sharpened up well)

Now that I worked enough to get rid of all the chips on the edge of this cheapo santuko - it does now look pretty good under 30x magnification, and does slice very cleanly through hanging paper -

I normally do not go more acute than about the angles of my V-hone crock sticks (about ~22deg/side) - first because I'm lazy - but mainly because I find that seems to give me the correct degree of control - this is more important to me in the kitchen - where my cutting seems to require more finesse and "precision" - so the right degree of sharpness and cutting ability is real important to me.

I used to think sharp is good, so even sharper has to be better -
but I have a damascus 7.5" chef's with VG-10 core (looks identical the Hattori HD series - about $110 now) that feels too sharp for me - although I do have control
- the feel - and I hate to say this, is not as good as this $6 cheapo santoku......

see Kitchen Knives for my photos of this 7.5" damascus chef's -
and an eBay listing

--
Vincent
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[Cliff Stamp]

But most of the kitchen knives I really like are relatively soft steels ...

In general the main use of hardness is that it allows a thinner geometry. But I have ground knives out of mild steel to 10 degrees per side (flat) and they still work find in the kitchen, food is just really soft, so yeah, just get an optimal shape.

..I have a damascus 7.5" chef's with VG-10 core (looks identical the Hattori HD series - about $110 now) that feels too sharp for me - although I do have control
- the feel - and I hate to say this, is not as good as this $6 cheapo santoku......

"too sharp" ?

The last part is kind of funny, but yeah I have seen it more than once. Lots of really cheap knives with decent designs in low end steels.

-Cliff

 

[UnknownVT]

"too sharp" ?
The last part is kind of funny, but yeah I have seen it more than once. Lots of really cheap knives with decent designs in low end steels.

Yes, I laugh at it myself - is there such a thing as "too sharp" ?

I guess for me the only way I can describe the (Hattori) damascus 7" chef's is "too sharp" - it kind of "pings" and seems to bite into hard plastic cutting boards almost like it's going crack/chip (of course it doesn't, just sounds and feels that way)

It may well be something else that's causing the feel not to be as good as the Boye 6" BDS chef or this cheapo $6 santoku.

I "minced" some garlic this evening with the cheapo santoku and it performed probably as well as the Boye 6" BDS - now that is probably saying quite a lot.......

--
Vincent
http://clik.to/UnknownVT2007
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http://clik.to/UnknownVT2004
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[Cliff Stamp]

On rare occasion I have had that be an issue, the easiest solution is to reduce the cutting ability by increasing the angle until it no longer sticks in the cutting board.

-Cliff

 

[1Tracker]

Thanks for the neat photos VT:thumbup: First time I have seen such high magnification of steel.

I agree, in the kitchen sometimes you can buy less expensive knives that end up working better than some high end knives due to comfort, easy of use, and sharpening issues IME

 

[UnknownVT]

Thanks for the neat photos VT:thumbup: First time I have seen such high magnification of steel.

Many thanks for the kind words - appreciate it
but I'm pretty sure others have posted high magnifcation of edges on BFC
- eg: recently in Get into the Groove! by thombrogan.

The 6-8x magnifaction shots were actually done on a flatbed scanner using the highest optical scanning resolution of my cheapo scanner of 600dpi - and as long as I crop an area to show the scan as-is un-resized that means it is at 600dpi - with monitors normally at 96dpi or 72dpi - that gives the 6x to 8x magnification factor - which I think is just enough to see the edge clearly.
(many scanners now will commonly scan at upto 1200dpi or even 2400dpi (optical resolution, and not extrapolated resolution) - that will give 12-16x, and even 24-32x magnifcation on monitors)

Please take a look at this old thread - some general flatbed Scanners advice

--
Vincent
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[Jeff Clark]

You can't have a knife too sharp for the kitchen. You need to get over your prejudice. Cutting boards are meant to get cut, get used to it. Kullens force the blade to be thicker than optimal (well zero is optimal, but 2mm is close to optimal) so they need to work on your food to be worth having. What happens when you slice tomatos or carrots? The problem is that the girls on the cooking shows are using knives with kullens so the customers think that they represent "quality" knives.

My idea of a high performance kitchen knife is a MAC UK-60 or UK-80:
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=83624
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=83625

 

[ulua]

i agree with mr. clark about the quality of MAC knives, they get the most use iin my kitchen...lite, quick, holds its edge!!!

as for the krulls...scallops...patented by granton in '35...there is a nice explaination at knifemerchant.com on the granton page. i have a old granton slicer and it's my 'go to' carver...it nerver has torn the tenderloin.
ulua

 

[Jeff Clark]

For about 30 years the only place you would ever see a Granton edge was in the serving line of a fine buffet. The guy thinly slicing the fine prime rib would have a Granton carver. It never occured to me that someone would use one on a chef's knife or Santoku.

 

[ulua]

mr.clark, i agree with you on the granton at the bufffet. mac makes an award winner granton santoku. i, not trusting the t.v. chef gals, bought a $35 one to test out. it's a mercer 'german steel' made in china, forged, commercial,
w/ good handle. it comes sharp quickly with the fine 'V' sticks. it's my 'go to' for fresh pineapple, scalloped spuds do not stick as bad as the mac 80. but the jury is still out and i can always pass it on to the kids. i'm not so sure about the santoku design in general.
ulua

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You can't have a knife too sharp for the kitchen. You need to get over your prejudice. Cutting boards are meant to get cut, get used to it.

I have used an ULU which with the origional angle had a cutting ability which was too high. It took more effort to jerk it out of the cutting board than was desired so I increased the angle a little. This of course had little effect on the overall cutting ability but significantly reduced the wood sticking and the blade became more productive.

-Cliff

 

[Jeff Clark]

The ulu is kind of a special case due to its high curvature. Were you chopping? I don't chop too much unless I have a relatively straight edge. Basically I use longer knives for chopping and that broadens the contact area. Did you have one of those bowl-shaped ulu chopping boards? Currently I mostly use plastic cutting boards that are hard enough that I never have an issue with blades sticking. These are actually small trays that are very handy. They keep liquids from slopping on the counter. Cuisinart Prep Boards:
http://www.cuisinart.com/catalog/product.php?product_id=47&item_id=85

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Did you have one of those bowl-shaped ulu chopping boards?

Yes, no chopping. Flat board won't allow clean cuts. I have had similar issues with other knives I reprofiled to very acute edges, 6-8 or so, they would score too deeply into the boards, too much resistance. It was just a matter of technique, but I found that an increase in edge angle reduced that effect a lot with little effect on the overall cutting ability. The board cutting is sensitive to just the very edge (all that penetrates) but the food sees the whole blade. However when I say increase the angle it is still nothing near tacticals and such.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Cliff and UnknownVincentTseng,

Your ulu and your santoku are not 'too sharp' with their stock edges. Your cutting boards are unsuitable for culinary work (the pores on the wood aren't closed enough). Cliff's unsuitable bowl/board is my fault.

Another nice review, Vincent! May I suggest you check out Forschner's line of Fibrox-handled knives? "TheChef" recommended them to me and their 10" Chef's knife is completely awesome. Not just 'for-the-money, it's a good value;' it's completely awesome. The edge isn't as thin and the steel isn't as hard a comparably-sized knife from Takeda or Carter, but it takes and holds a good edge and will survive the dishwasher if you so dare (not me, though. I've heard dishwashers treat kitchen knives like they were in 'Oz' unless they're serrated). The factory edge is not so good, but all knives need sharpening anyways.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... cutting boards are unsuitable for culinary work

There is this, anyone have nice iron wood cutting boards?

-Cliff

 

[UnknownVT]

Your ulu and your santoku are not 'too sharp' with their stock edges. Your cutting boards are unsuitable for culinary work (the pores on the wood aren't closed enough).

I do not purport to know much about cutting boards - but I favor plastic boards - mainly because they feel better to me and can be more easily cleaned.

The board that seems to show up the "too sharp" feel is a plexiglass/perspex type board with texturing (upper transparent one in photo) - it is hard-ish plastic and not glass.

Thats' the (damascus) knife that feels "too sharp" - it may not actually be the sharpness - as I have run this knife over my usual V-hone crock sticks which are ~22deg/side.

That knife does bite on the boards - but it does not get anywhere near stuck - it's mainly the sound it makes when it contacts the board - on the plexiglass one it "pings" or even makes a crackling noise like it's gritty - and almost sounds as if the edge is cracking/fracturing - but of course it's only a sound....

The other (white) board shown in the photo is my current favorite - I purchased fairly recently from WalMart for a ridiculously low price of a dollar something - I have thrown away the label that it came with (but next time I'm in a WalMart I'll look - EDIT to ADD - it's a Faberware 14"x10"). It's a poly material with some fine texturing on the surface, and doesn't feel as hard as the plexiglass one - but somewhat harder than the previous poly boards I've used.

On this board the culprit knife does not sound quite as loudly but it is there specially compared to this cheapo Santoku. This cheapo Santoku actually has a more resonant blade - flicking makes it ring.

FWIW - close up of the boards to show texturing -

Plexiglass/perspex -

Poly - (hard to see) -

It may just be "my problem", a psychological thing, or mere personal preference.

However in mitigation - I have found that fresh razor cartridges do not feel as comfortable as one that has been used a few times - again without any qualification I call the fresh razors "too sharp".....

So is there such a thing as "too sharp"?

Thanks guys for all the input and discussion.....

not bad from a $6 kitchen knife

--
Vincent
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http://clik.to/UnknownVT2005
http://clik.to/UnknownVT2004
http://clik.to/UnknownVincent

 

[thombrogan]

However in mitigation - I have found that fresh razor cartridges do not feel as comfortable as one that has been used a few times - again without any qualification I call the fresh razors "too sharp".....

So is there such a thing as "too sharp"?

My bad for assuming you had a wooden cutting board. The texture on the plexiglass makes it look like no edge would lay flat on it and the pressure of the edge would be concentrated to the higher parts of the texture. Weird that your new santoku doesn't bite into it.

We need to examine fresh razor cartridges more thoroughly. Some of the non-cartridge blades photographed for Leonard Lee's book had burred edges. Maybe your blades are 'too sharp' and your initial, uncomfortable shaves are wearing the edges down to an acceptable level of keenness, but, then, maybe your blades are burred and you're using your face as a textured strop.