another Santoku (cheap)

Kullens force the blade to be thicker than optimal (well zero is optimal, but 2mm is close to optimal) so they need to work on your food to be worth having. What happens when you slice tomatos or carrots? The problem is that the girls on the cooking shows are using knives with kullens so the customers think that they represent "quality" knives.

I agree about the kullens/Granton edge - I think it is there to appeal and obviously sell.

Like the comment about the girls on cooking shows - however, I do think the kullen Santoku existed before any of the TV shows - but because of the popularity - most santokus come with kullens/Granton edges - in fact when I looked it was hard to find any plain faced santokus.

can easily live without the kullens/Granton edge -
but it's not exactly as if there was much choice or option on this cheapo $6 Santoku of not having kullens :eek:

However I don't think it's paying much penalty in terms of blade thinness.
Don't have a micrometer to measure - but I normally just pinch the blade and pull toward the edge to feel - and this Santoku feels in the ballpark as the David Boye 6" chef's and the damascus 7" cook's. It feels thinner than a SAK blade near the edge and even the 5" original Chicago Cutlery 62S utility/boner.

I have not yet refined the edge so it is a simple plain single step bevel formed using my usual V-hone crock sticks at ~22deg/side -
and as one can see that bevel is pretty narrow - which means the blade is pretty thin toward the edge.

May I suggest you check out Forschner's line of Fibrox-handled knives? "TheChef" recommended them to me and their 10" Chef's knife is completely awesome. Not just 'for-the-money, it's a good value;' it's completely awesome. The edge isn't as thin and the steel isn't as hard a comparably-sized knife from Takeda or Carter, but it takes and holds a good edge and will survive the dishwasher if you so dare (not me, though. I've heard dishwashers treat kitchen knives like they were in 'Oz' unless they're serrated). The factory edge is not so good, but all knives need sharpening anyways.

Many thanks Thom - I just want to acknowledge that recommendation - I have long been a Forschner/Victorinox kitchen knife enthusiast. My favorite paring knife is Victorinox and I have often refered people to this page -

Kitchen Knives Review at ConsumerSearch

where they claim to be reviewing the reviews - ie: survey the reviews and come to some conscenus.

Quote: "Best budget knife set. In reviews, experts often express surprise when evaluating these stamped knives, as they run counter to the assumption that the best cutlery is forged. Some experts miss the bolster, a feature on forged knives that aids in balance and maneuverability, but they say the Forschner's sharp blade can compete with knives costing twice as much. In recent reviews, the Forschner chef's knife easily beats cheaper knives."

"Although many inexpensive cutlery doesn't perform well in tests, reviews are unanimous about one budget cutlery line -- Forschner Victorinox Fibrox (8-inch chef's knife, (*est. $30) ). We found nothing but excellent reviews for the Forschner Fibrox knives, which come close in utility, durability and ergonomics to pricier knives from Wusthof and Global."

"It's commonly accepted that the best knives are forged -- hammered into shape from a single piece of metal. An alternative method is to stamp them out of a sheet of metal; this process produces a lighter, thinner blade without a lip between the handle and blade (called a bolster on forged knives). Many cheaper knives are made this way, and reviewers say they can feel flimsy and hard to control. Forschner Victorinox Fibrox (*est. $60 for three) stamped knives are the exception. In side-by-side tests, experts are amazed at how well these perform next to forged knives that are three times as expensive. In a Cook's Illustrated review, Forschner Victorinox tops three categories: chef's knives under $50, paring knives and bread knives."

"but we found more prolific enthusiasm for the Forschner Victorinox Fibrox series of stamped knives (*est. $60 for three) . In an interview with Kiplinger's Personal Finance magazine, chef Wayne Nish says the "Victorinox knives appear to be designed by chefs for chefs." Other reviewers agree. Victorinox makes the best stamped knives, and you can get a set of three Victorinox knives for the price of one Cutco blade. We've included Victorinox knives in ConsumerSearch Fast Answers."

Lastly their take on Santokus -

Quote: "Japanese santiku knives. A new trend among enthusiasts is the santoku knife. While sales of traditional knives are stagnant, sales of santoku knives have tripled in the U.S. Similar to a chef's knife, a santoku knife has a shorter, thinner blade. Some models have a hollow edge (sometimes called a Granton edge), which is intended to minimize friction between food and knife surface for speedier slicing. Many reviewers say that a santoku knife is a great addition to your collection of kitchen knives and that because of their shorter, thinner blades, santoku knives excel at thinly slicing vegetables and doing delicate work.
Editors at Cook's Illustrated, however, say that a santoku knife can't replace a chef's knife entirely. That's because their blades are too short and thin to achieve the kind of versatility of a chef's knife. For example, santoku knives are not recommended for cutting bone. In a ten-santoku roundup, testers "heartily" recommend the MAC Superior Santoku knife (*est. $60) . Editors say it's an excellent value and a top performer. Cook's Illustrated team also likes the Kershaw Shun Santoku (*est. $110) , but this model is nearly twice as expensive. The Shun Santoku is also deemed the best santoku in a recent review at The Wall Street Journal, where the Wusthof Trident Classic santoku with hollow edge (*est. $90) takes the award for best value. Contributors to Amazon.com and Epinions also are big fans of the Wusthof santoku knife.
We've included the Wusthof Classic santoku in Fast Answers. While all three of these knives get excellent reviews, we think the Wusthof has the best blend of attributes, and it's less expensive than the Shun. The Wusthof is a forged knife, while the MAC Superior is a stamped knife.
Celebrity chefs have also gotten into the endorsement game. Many critics attribute the initial popularity of santoku knives to Rachel Ray, host of The Food Network's "Thirty Minute Meals." For several years, Ray used the Wusthof santoku in her test kitchen. Ray has signed an endorsement deal with Furi cutlery, which is now making Rachel-Ray branded knives, including a santoku knife. Another Food Network personality, Alton Brown, backs Kershaw Shun."

--
Vincent
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I actually wanted a santoku for a while, but have become a chefs knife addict. With a good gyuto, the foodworld is your oyster (you may need an oyster knife). The paring knife is also good when your wife and your friends make that look when you're peeling an apple with a chefs knife.
 
The earliest Santoku that I was familiar with was the Spyderco. I don't know when they started making them, but they were well known here back at the beginning of 1999. They didn't have any stinking kullens. What they did have was an MBS-26 alloy blade that took an amazing thin edge and a great no-slip ergonomic handle. I need to go out and find one of those on the used market.

I have bought several santokus over that last 10 years and only recently started noticing ones with kullens. The Wusthoffs were the first ones that I remember.
 
We need to examine fresh razor cartridges more thoroughly. Some of the non-cartridge blades photographed for Leonard Lee's book had burred edges. Maybe your blades are 'too sharp' and your initial, uncomfortable shaves are wearing the edges down to an acceptable level of keenness, but, then, maybe your blades are burred and you're using your face as a textured strop. :eek:

Going slightly off-topic - but it's still about being "too sharp" -

I use Gillette razors - my current shave is with the Gillette Mach3 Turbo - which boasts of some anti-friction coating. My previous shave was with the Gillette Sensor Excel where I also had the impression of "too sharp" and those took a few shaves to reach optimum - and seem to stay that way.

Please see this thread for more discussion and photos -

Multi-Blade Razors

I have examined the razors under 30x magnification for new, optimum and well used cartridges - and could not see any burring, chipping nor any rough edging/damage....
(I agree this may not be high enough magnification - but that's all I have and it's good enough to see when my other edges/knives are in need of honing, and for examining edges when I'm sharpening/honing.)

Please note: I am using "too sharp" in quotes as it is the only description I feel suitable - it may not be that and something else that's causing this effect - but for now I'm opening myself up for ridicule - and will continue to use that term in quotes until corrected.

Back on Topic - this cheapo Santoku will cut my plastic boards - it just does not sound or feel the same way as that damscus blade (just for completeness my David Boye does not have any problems) -

In a somewhat artificial test for sharpness - I sliced up some manmade/plastic cork (from some cheap wine) - which tends to be a bit harder and resistant than meat or veg and will tend to bind on poorer geometry - using mainly push cut - but with some pull back - ie: whatever cuts through the best.....

The damascus cuts through the best (with the attendent feel/sound), followed very closely by both the Boye and this Santoku - I would say close enough that I'd be hard put to choose.

EDIT to ADD photo -
ChefMateCorkCut.jpg


Now that I've used this Santoku for a while - the edge seems to be holding up well for my normal kitchen cutting - almost all veg - (onions, garlic etc) - the edge now looks very good under 30X magnification - I have honed it a bit more on my V-hone crock sticks - now the edge almost looks perfect - all the chipping took a while to remove and occassionally I did see fold-over -
so it is pretty cheap steel - well it was a pretty cheap knife - I mean $6?

So all in all this Santoku may have turned out to be a bargain -
but I will give this caveat - I did examine the knife in its blister pack and chose the one that seemed be the thinnest at the edge......
being dirt cheap I would say that sample variations may be high.

EDIT to ADD - the cheap poly cutting board from WalMart, mentioned earlier, was a Faberware 14"x10".

--
Vincent
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http://clik.to/UnknownVT2005
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Interesting notion, note that razor blades (the utility ones) can indeed be too sharp for some applicatons, hence :

http://www.scraperite.com/product.html

In general though, you don't hear people complaining about straight razors being too sharp which leads me to wonder what exact you are seeing. I would simply measure the sharpness of a new vs used one and see.

-Cliff
 
just a tip -- don't chop with your fine edged and super-thin blades -- save them for slicing. Chop with the smaller, heartier blades, like that junk santuko. Stay at the back of the blade so the hilt(if there is one) hits the board first. IMO, as long as the cutting board is softer than glass, you're OK. In my home kitchen there is a nice rock maple board built into the counter, at work we have nylon cutting boards EVERYWHERE(even on the walls, believe it or not), and they all perform fine.

The last forschners we bought for work were collaborations between forschner and victorinox -- that was like porn for me.

A while back, I bought a Sabatier santuko(french made, built like a german[knife or speedskater - take your pick]) when the local kitchen store went out of business, and it weighs, oh I don't know, ten pounds? Plus there is a HUGE belly on the blade that makes it almost useless for chopping. I also had a sabatier-lagiole corkscrew that turned out to be complete junk. I'm done with sabatier - bunch of homos, anyway.

I have found that the only time a knife is to sharp is when the blade is more flexible than rigid, and the material being cut moves the blade in unitended directions.
 
great thread - very interesting stuff here! :thumbup:
 
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