Another welding question.

[jdm61]

This may sound dumb, but when a welder is rated up to 3/16 or 1/4 inch, what exactly does that mean for our uses? We typically are not doing "structural" welding. Mostly, I care about is that a welder will actually stick a handle to a damascus billet well enough that it won't fall off a couple of presses into the drawing out process. However, i would like to be able to weld up dies form my press. do I need a 1/4 inch capable welder to weld 1/4 thick angle iron to a 3/8 plate?

 

[Jason Fry]

I have no idea, but I'd like to know as well.

 

[jdm61]

From whT I have gathered off of the Weld.com website, you calculate 1 amp per 1/1000 of thickness. The typical 140 amp dual voltage will give you like 85 amps max in 120V mode. The 200 amp will give you 120A. So that said .085 to .120 04 1/8 MOL. But how is that measured? Does that mean you need at least 200A to weld that 1/4 inch angle iron to a plate? My problem is that the only 230V I have in my shop is the oddball 230/20A like you used to see on old window unit air conditioners. The is how my oven came wired so I wired my little press the same way.

 

[Matt Rochester]

The ratings on most welders are exaggerated. I have a Miller 175 that says it will weld 5/16. It wont. Also, a standard mig penetrates less than a tig or stick. So, if you're welding 1/4" stock and your welder wont handle it, just bevel both pieces and lay a root pass. Then lay 2 on that, 3 on that, and so on. I believe the ratings are for a single pass but like I said they are over rated. A stick will penetrate better for less money. A gas shielded mig is a lot easier.

 

[Cody Hofsommer]

I'm not a welder, but I have welded with a little 110 wirefeed quite a bit. I know that you get crazy penetration when the steel is a dull red. If I'm worried that I'm not able to weld hot enough with the welder, a preheat with a torch or if it's small, toss it in the forge for a little bit😄👍

 

[Kentucky]

Most of those ratings are typically what the welder is suppose to be able to weld in one pass..There are many factors that come into real world play here..Your position and weld prep for instance..If you take the time to bevel your material it will make a substantially stronger and better penetrating weld..Its the reason we bevel in structural and pipe..Though those are done with arc welders generally. If you don't care to learn id suggest a DC capable arc welder. For much less than the price of a good MIG you can find a good used DC capable machine that will do far and away more than you need for a bladesmithing shop.

 

[jdm61]

Would welding those dies require filler metal if doing multiple passes with a 110V TIG? I have seen damascus billet tacking and handle welding done without filler, but that was a bigger machine.

 

[Matt Rochester]

If there is no gap then you can TIG without filler. TIG is an art. Mig is point and shoot. As Kentucky stated positions plays a big role. The direction the tip is pointed is the direction the heat is going and heat is penetration. I weld with the tip at about a 20 degree angle pointed in the direction I'm going. This will give you good penetration.

 

[coldsteelburns]

If you don't mind me askin here Joe (if so I'm sorry & will delete this post), what would you guys recommend for a welder for someone (like myself and maybe Joe) who only has access to 120V outlets, and doesn't have space, money, motivation etc. for buying sheiding gas equip, and doesn't know much about welding.

I'm intersted in the same/similar things Joe is interested in, like welding handles on billets and small random welding projects, for making jigs and dies etc etc..

I've had a 90 amp Harbor Freight for about 4 years nows and have used it quite a few times, but all I ever did was point and shoot lol. I now know that I never prepped the handles (rebar) correctly after reading about pre-heateating and "correctly" beveling etc., so of course they always fell off, but the welds holding the billets together did do their job. The wire feeder is also twitchy, so its doesn't flow out smoothly at all and messes thing up more than they already are lol. Anyway I really have been wanting something else that I can have a little more confidence in and also, hopefully, has more potential than the one I have in the hands of someone like myself.

You guys mentioned a stick welder being better than a mig for what we bladesmiths/knifemakers mostly do around the shop, would that be the best route to take? Could you recommend a make and model that will get these types of jobs welded up better than my crappy 90 amp HF welder? It's the older blue model too, if that even makes a difference.

I apologize again Joe, please let me know if you're not interested in the answers to the questions I've asked and I'll delete.

~Paul

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My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been quite a while since I've posted any new vids)

 

[jdm61]

Paul, I had the same experience with my Home Depot special flux core wire 110V Lincoln. Eventually, it just stopped feeding. Never could get the handles to stick for long even with beveling. My neighbor's 220V argon wire rig worked a lot better, but still not ideal for tacking, etc. I got to the point where I was just leaving the middle piece of 1084 real long as a handle, but even that has its problems, primarily waste at the big end.

If you don't mind me askin here Joe (if so I'm sorry & will delete this post), what would you guys recommend for a welder for someone (like myself and maybe Joe) who only has access to 120V outlets, and doesn't have space, money, motivation etc. for buying sheiding gas equip, and doesn't know much about welding.

I'm intersted in the same/similar things Joe is interested in, like welding handles on billets and small random welding projects, for making jigs and dies etc etc..

I've had a 90 amp Harbor Freight for about 4 years nows and have used it quite a few times, but all I ever did was point and shoot lol. I now know that I never prepped the handles (rebar) correctly after reading about pre-heateating and "correctly" beveling etc., so of course they always fell off, but the welds holding the billets together did do their job. The wire feeder is also twitchy, so its doesn't flow out smoothly at all and messes thing up more than they already are lol. Anyway I really have been wanting something else that I can have a little more confidence in and also, hopefully, has more potential than the one I have in the hands of someone like myself.

You guys mentioned a stick welder being better than a mig for what we bladesmiths/knifemakers mostly do around the shop, would that be the best route to take? Could you recommend a make and model that will get these types of jobs welded up better than my crappy 90 amp HF welder? It's the older blue model too, if that even makes a difference.

I apologize again Joe, please let me know if you're not interested in the answers to the questions I've asked and I'll delete.

~Paul

---

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been quite a while since I've posted any new vids)

 

[Kevin Powers]

The one amp per thousand rule is crap at best. That sets you up to overheat everything you weld. Yes, everything. Using that "rule" would mean you'd need 250 amps to weld 1/4". If you light up on 1/4" with 250 amps you better be good at filling holes. If using the right diameter wire and proper prep, a 110 unit set up with a small wire solid wire or flux will do the job honestly. Try beveling your round stock about 1/4" and maybe preheating the billet. Rebar is pretty crappy metal made up of scrap and god knows what else. The issue you'll have is your billet being so thick. That will suck all the heat out of the weld. A little preheat on that end will probably get you where you need to be.

Also in regards to what options you have with 110v circuits. Inverter based machines have opened options up to the 110 guys. However, the cost much more. In most cases it would probably be cheaper to get a 220 outlet installed in your shop. Even with inverters you're only going to get so much power to the puddle. There is no such thing as a best machine. Each person has specific applications to cater to their needs. One process isn't going to do it all because of too many different factors to consider. Yes tig welds just about any metal ever made but it's slow and requires a big jump in skills to do properly. Tig machines will stick weld as well. Most garage guys run out and buy a mig because it's easy to use. That's fine but it also has its limitations. Mig requires more amperage to weld because you're continuously feeding a wire into the puddle. For example put a roll of .035 solid wire in that Home Depot 110 Lincoln and report back how it works, I'll save you the heartache, it won't. The wire is too big to actually melt and it robs the machine of power. To get the most penetration out of a 110 wire feeder #1 use flux cored wire that it came with, #2 use the small diameter solid wire I think like .023" or whatever oddball size with 100% co2 shielding gas. Argon has a cooling effect on the arc and puddle and requires higher voltage and amperage to work correctly.

If you had a stick welder that only put out 85 amps you could get that billet and handle together using smaller diameter electrodes. I'd pick a 3/32" 6010, 6011, or 7018 for that application. For welding dies with tig you do need filler. Machines are rated for single pass. You could always do multiple passes to build up the reinforcement, bevel, and preheat etc.

Here's 2 different examples of multiple passes with mig. All the red spots are the end craters of each pass.

And here's a v groove done with mig vertically using a weave. It's a 3/8" plate filled in 3 passes.