Anti E&E Kit?

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Bare Rib

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Jeff & Mike

In the weirdest thing in your BOB thread, I stated that I think I have a higher probability of finding myself in an L&F (lost & found) situation over an E&E situation. And, while it may be fun for some to fantasize about the heroic tribulations of finding oneself in a E&E situation, lets be honest for 99% of us its never going to happen. However the chances of getting lost or injured in the woods and needing help is a much more likely scenario.

So has ESEE ever considered putting together an Anti E&E kit? A kit designed to help you get found or to help you to stay alive long enough to be found if you get lost.
 
It would seem to me that any survival kit with a signal mirror and a compass is pointing in the direction you desire. Adding a FOX-40 Whistle and possibly a couple other items and, VOILA! You have a regular survival kit.

It's only the inclusion of a few items like synthetic handcuff keys that really points to escaping anything.

Even military personnel have to switch between actively evading hostile forces to signaling aircraft to be rescued...a very dangerous time for them because smoke and being in an area open to use a signal mirror, for example, can be seen by enemy personnel as well.

Beyond a few key items, I don't see any difference between the kits, most of it is outlook and mindset anyway.
 
Don Rearic said:
It would seem to me that any survival kit with a signal mirror and a compass is pointing in the direction you desire. Adding a FOX-40 Whistle and possibly a couple other items and, VOILA! You have a regular survival kit.

It's only the inclusion of a few items like synthetic handcuff keys that really points to escaping anything.

Even military personnel have to switch between actively evading hostile forces to signaling aircraft to be rescued...a very dangerous time for them because smoke and being in an area open to use a signal mirror, for example, can be seen by enemy personnel as well.

Beyond a few key items, I don't see any difference between the kits, most of it is outlook and mindset anyway.
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BackwoodsBummin' said:
I think these fit that bill.

http://www.eseeknives.com/survivalkitbasic.htm

http://www.eseeknives.com/comprehensive_kit.htm

http://www.eseeknives.com/survivalkit.htm


And I agree with you on the likelihood of the average civilian finding themselves in an E&E situation.
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Totally agree with you guys there, but I'm looking out for Jeff and Mike's wallets here. Trying to give them one more thing to sell us so they can finally buy the new ESEE cult compound I mean that villa in Costa Rica.;)

BackwoodsBummin' said:
I still like to think that the plastic handcuff key and lockpick set in my survival kit make me look cool, though;)
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Yes but they only make you look cool if you have them dangeling from the lanyard of a Junglas
 
yeah, I think it comes down to looking at the things in your kit and asking yourself how would/can I use this item for signaling/getting found or E&E.
 
i'm confused. this whole esee forum/company is all about acquiring and practicing survival skills. how to start fire, build shelter, find food, etc. they already sell knives, firesteels, compasses, etc.

i know it can get confusing at times with people wanting to match their izula wraps with their man purse and stuff...but trust me, this "anti e&e" stuff permeates this whole forum.
 
Don Rearic said:
It would seem to me that any survival kit with a signal mirror and a compass is pointing in the direction you desire. Adding a FOX-40 Whistle and possibly a couple other items and, VOILA! You have a regular survival kit.

It's only the inclusion of a few items like synthetic handcuff keys that really points to escaping anything.

Even military personnel have to switch between actively evading hostile forces to signaling aircraft to be rescued...a very dangerous time for them because smoke and being in an area open to use a signal mirror, for example, can be seen by enemy personnel as well.

Beyond a few key items, I don't see any difference between the kits, most of it is outlook and mindset anyway.
Click to expand...


On my last deployment (Afghanistan) I carried a Survival kit with some additional signal items so I could get picked up, like IR Strobe, IR Chem Light on 550, Piece of VS-17 Panel, the only things I was missing were actual escape tools like a hand cuff key but in Afghanistan I was not worried about being hand cuffed.
 
Absolutely, beyond a few specialty tools like the ones I mentioned, there are very few differences. Now, when you are talking about being a caucasoid among Asians or Africans or language differences even among caucasoids, well, that's when you get into real E&E stuff that goes far beyond hardware.

There are field differences, too. If you have to hack down saplings to make a lean-to or a wickiup, you just hack stuff down. If you are trying to elude enemy personnel, you would want to take dirt and darken the start white cut saplings as they stick out from the air. In a survival situation where you want to be found, that's just one more thing that sticks out like a sore thumb, so you don't darken them.

Same with the type of fire you want. E&E, if you have a fire at all, the Dakota Fire Hole is a really good thing to take the time to build. Assuming the soil in the area you are in is able to support that structure.

As for E&E stuff and people not respecting that or whatever, it matters not. If it were not for regular Citizens brain-storming things, we would not have the firearms advancements we have had because the military and the police cannot support the firearms industry as much as millions of Citizens who love firearms. Same with knives. Look at some of the knives the military has created through their input. What's the best one? The Kabar...that's about it. I'm talking about on a mass scale.

So, innovation is from multiple minds coming up with stuff. I remember reading a book called "The Tunnels of Cu Chi." The Tunnel Rats despised the scientists coming up with one hare-brained gizmo after another. Had they taken three Tunnel Rats and dispersed them to three of the companies making the junk they had to field test, perhaps they would have come up with better stuff.

But it's easier to come up with new ways to cut restraints than it is to make something that sniffs out the VC from 12 feet around a tunnel corner. :D

"E&E Gear" summons up images of "wannabes" and "mall ninjas" and the rest of that Internet bullshit where someone who contributes nothing lumps the thinkers and doers in with the kids who post bullshit.

If any Soldier, Marine, Airman or Sailor or anyone in a job that takes them overseas, public or private sector wants hardcore, effective "E&E Gear," and they want to keep it simple...

Purchasing a pair of S&W, Peerless and Hiatts handcuffs and actually learning to pick and shim them, because they are all a little bit different...and learning when you can shim and when you cannot and learning how to slam them to release the secondary lock when that is activated if that is harder to pick, that's valuable. The Bogotas and Monserrates are excellent choices because you have four tools, each a pick and a turning tool combined. That along with a few other things and you are good to go. It's really that simple.

Before I had to sell my AR-15, most of the ammo I purchased was Israeli Battle Packs or on stripper clips in USGI bandoleers. All of the bandoleers were supplied with one stripper clip guide on a heavy duty safety pin. The same safety pin that you find in the USGI Survival Fishing Kits. Some are chrome and some are black and they are all strong enough to make a handcuff pick.

That was also the original "carry system" for the Bogotas. You used the spring from a clicky ballpoint pen and a safety pin and you could pin two picks inside clothing, etc.
 
JV3 said:
i'm confused. this whole esee forum/company is all about acquiring and practicing survival skills. how to start fire, build shelter, find food, etc. they already sell knives, firesteels, compasses, etc.

i know it can get confusing at times with people wanting to match their izula wraps with their man purse and stuff...but trust me, this "anti e&e" stuff permeates this whole forum.
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Since when was escaping and evading not a survival skill? Not sure what you're driving at here. The E&E kit was never meant for most people who hike and backpack and I'm not sure why they buy it since there are far better survival kits out there for those types of activities. It was built for those who travel into areas such as South America or even Mexico where kidnapping and abduction or an issue.
 
Jeff, I think he was speaking to the OP and trying to say everything y'all do is survival and the E&E kit is the only really specialized equipment you're offering, the rest would be right up his alley for surviving and being found.
 
TXPigPoacher said:
Jeff, I think he was speaking to the OP and trying to say everything y'all do is survival and the E&E kit is the only really specialized equipment you're offering, the rest would be right up his alley for surviving and being found.
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Wasn't talking about Don or the others posters. I was speaking to the OP. Don and I are on the same page and pretty much cut from the same cloth;)
 
Don Rearic said:
Now, when you are talking about being a caucasoid among Asians or Africans or language differences even among caucasoids, well, that's when you get into real E&E stuff that goes far beyond hardware.
Click to expand...

Don Rearoc said:
"E&E Gear" summons up images of "wannabes" and "mall ninjas" and the rest of that Internet bullshit where someone who contributes nothing lumps the thinkers and doers in with the kids who post bullshit.
Click to expand...

R.A.T. said:
Since when was escaping and evading not a survival skill? Not sure what you're driving at here. The E&E kit was never meant for most people who hike and backpack and I'm not sure why they buy it since there are far better survival kits out there for those types of activities. It was built for those who travel into areas such as South America or even Mexico where kidnapping and abduction or an issue.
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I quoted these three statements because I couldn't agree more and they are along the same lines as my response would have been if they didn't reply first. E&E Isn't for everyone. It's a skill to add to your "skills toolbox" if you are the type of person who through work, duty or through adventure seeking puts you in risky and out of the ordinary situations.

Now, have I ever used my E&E skills in a life or death situation? No. However, a quick self evaluation shows that I am without question the type of person who could end up needing it. I travel as often as possible to the jungles of developing countries to tromp around in the most remote places I can find, and I do it for fun. My work, too, puts me in close proximity to bad guys with bad intentions.

I think anyone interested in learning the skills should, but throwing an E&E kit in your backpack isn't going to do much for you. The tools need to be prepared on your person or you are going to loose them early in any situation where you are being restrained. The skills need to be practiced and honed. (As I type this, I'm sitting here with a hair pin in my mouth and a pair of S&W M-100's dangling from one wrist.)

A survival kit isn't going to help you survive unless you know how to use the tools in it just as an E&E kit isn't going to help you escape or evade if it is taken from you (or you don't know how to use the tools in it).

Ok, end of rant. I think I had a point in there somewhere. haha :D
 
Horridus said:
I quoted these three statements because I couldn't agree more and they are along the same lines as my response would have been if they didn't reply first. E&E Isn't for everyone. It's a skill to add to your "skills toolbox" if you are the type of person who through work, duty or through adventure seeking puts you in risky and out of the ordinary situations.

Now, have I ever used my E&E skills in a life or death situation? No. However, a quick self evaluation shows that I am without question the type of person who could end up needing it. I travel as often as possible to the jungles of developing countries to tromp around in the most remote places I can find, and I do it for fun. My work, too, puts me in close proximity to bad guys with bad intentions.

I think anyone interested in learning the skills should, but throwing an E&E kit in your backpack isn't going to do much for you. The tools need to be prepared on your person or you are going to loose them early in any situation where you are being restrained. The skills need to be practiced and honed. (As I type this, I'm sitting here with a hair pin in my mouth and a pair of S&W M-100's dangling from one wrist.)

A survival kit isn't going to help you survive unless you know how to use the tools in it just as an E&E kit isn't going to help you escape or evade if it is taken from you (or you don't know how to use the tools in it).

Ok, end of rant. I think I had a point in there somewhere. haha :D
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Absolutely, hands down, the best post made on this whole thread. Explains everything perfectly. People buy things and think they're automatically safe just because they have it. Bullshit! They are actually in worse shape because now they have a false sense of security. Just got through writing a column in SWAT about this concerning "survival kits". Hate to be so blunt but if you don't get out and practice with the tools you own then you're nothing more than fodder to me when the shit hits the fan. Thank you for the post, Horridus!
 
Horridus said:
Now, have I ever used my E&E skills in a life or death situation?
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Among the indigenous peoples of Baltimore City, yes I have. Different type of E&E, though. Bash in face with flashlight, kick in stones, run for vehicle.

However, that's really not a stretch at all. The stakes are just as high, death. And if you look at the thought behind the British SOE and American OSS edged weapons, that's really what it was all about, too. Your forged papers didn't pass muster and you're about ready to have a really bad time? Slash them across the face with a small thumb or lapel dagger or stick them with a sleeve dagger and run like hell.

(As I type this, I'm sitting here with a hair pin in my mouth and a pair of S&W M-100's dangling from one wrist.)
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It might surprise you, but The Locksmith Ledger ran a series on picking, shimming and servicing the popular handcuffs in the 1960s and pre-60s and the woman's hairpin was the picking tool of choice for Locksmiths. That says something, this was not some Paladin Press or Desert Publications book, this was put together by The Ledger. Then swiped by some unknown individual and put together, copied and stapled and used to be sold by magic shops. :)
 
I think I have created a monster here.

My original post was never bashing E&E skills or the kit. It just seemed that many here were excited by the kit or purchasing the kit and I wasn't sure why. I know that there are good few individuals here that the kit is a great asset due to there line of work. I myself know at this time there is no purpose for me to get it, I'm just not in any high risk situations. Now if I become a PA DCNR Park Ranger or Fish & Game Officer like I have been considering or go to Africa to aid in a research study they yes I would get an E&E Wallet and will practice practice practice.

I know that ESEE makes some very nice and comprehensive survival kits but, they are not what I would call compact like the E&E Wallet. My idea was meant to be a simple one. A small prepackaged kit that is the size of the E&E wallet (ie small enough to fit easily in a pocket)that is easy to carry. That way if something bad happens you have something to help better your odds at getting found.

E&E Wallet contents
USA Made Cordura Tri-Fold Wallet Style Container
USA Made Floss Card With E&E Tips Printed On The Card
USA Made Mini Titanium Blade (Made by ARS Knives)
USA Made Kevlar Cordage
USA Made Signal Mirror (click to see image)
USA Made Non-Metallic Handcuff Key
USA Made E&E Plastic Instruction Cards (click to see image)
USA Made Clear Plastic Survival Nav Card (click to see image)
USA Made Ferro / Magnesium Rod
USA Made ESEE AH-1 Arrowhead
Fish Hooks (various sizes)
Button Compass
Rare Earth Cylindrical Magnets
Kit Size: 4 1/4" x 2 3/4"

MY IDEA WAS SOMETHING LIKE THIS
L&F Wallet contents
USA Made Cordura Tri-Fold Wallet Style Container
USA Made Floss Card With POSSIBLE USES ON BACK
USA Made Mini Titanium Blade (Made by ARS Knives)
USA Made PEN FLARE LAUNCHER (http://truflareusa.com/single-shot.htm)
USA Made Signal Mirror (click to see image)
USA Made SLIM RESCUE WHISTLE (LIKE JETSCREAM)
USA Made PLASTIC SIGNALING INSTRUCTION CARDS (MULTIPLE METHODS)
USA Made Clear Plastic Survival Nav Card (click to see image)
USA Made Ferro / Magnesium Rod
USA Made ESEE AH-1 Arrowhead
Fish Hooks (various sizes)
Button Compass
Rare Earth Cylindrical Magnets
SMALL FLASH LIGHT W/ SIGNALING MODE http://inovalight.com/microlight/microlight-clear-body.php
SOME TYPE OF OBJECT THAT CREATES HIGH AMOUNTS OF SMOKE (EVEN JUST SOME RUBBER TO BURN)
 
BackwoodsBummin' said:
And I agree with you on the likelihood of the average civilian finding themselves in an E&E situation. I still like to think that the plastic handcuff key and lockpick set in my survival kit make me look cool, though;)
Click to expand...

I just want to note that bad guys have handcuffs too. Usually they are cheap ones. Unlikely you'll be cuffed unless your store is being robbed or they want to kidnap you, and if you're not female or worth a substantial amount of ransom they aren't going to kidnap you any longer than it takes to get your PIN code for the ATM. As for lockpicks, sometimes you might be in a situation where the only way to get where you need to be is through a padlocked fence. Sure, you can climb the fence, but what if you're driving a vehicle? Lockpicks take up a lot less room and weight than boltcutters.
 
Bare Rib said:
I think I have created a monster here.

My original post was never bashing E&E skills or the kit. It just seemed that many here were excited by the kit or purchasing the kit and I wasn't sure why. I know that there are good few individuals here that the kit is a great asset due to there line of work. I myself know at this time there is no purpose for me to get it, I'm just not in any high risk situations. Now if I become a PA DCNR Park Ranger or Fish & Game Officer like I have been considering or go to Africa to aid in a research study they yes I would get an E&E Wallet and will practice practice practice.

I know that ESEE makes some very nice and comprehensive survival kits but, they are not what I would call compact like the E&E Wallet. My idea was meant to be a simple one. A small prepackaged kit that is the size of the E&E wallet (ie small enough to fit easily in a pocket)that is easy to carry. That way if something bad happens you have something to help better your odds at getting found.

E&E Wallet contents
USA Made Cordura Tri-Fold Wallet Style Container
USA Made Floss Card With E&E Tips Printed On The Card
USA Made Mini Titanium Blade (Made by ARS Knives)
USA Made Kevlar Cordage
USA Made Signal Mirror (click to see image)
USA Made Non-Metallic Handcuff Key
USA Made E&E Plastic Instruction Cards (click to see image)
USA Made Clear Plastic Survival Nav Card (click to see image)
USA Made Ferro / Magnesium Rod
USA Made ESEE AH-1 Arrowhead
Fish Hooks (various sizes)
Button Compass
Rare Earth Cylindrical Magnets
Kit Size: 4 1/4" x 2 3/4"

MY IDEA WAS SOMETHING LIKE THIS
L&F Wallet contents
USA Made Cordura Tri-Fold Wallet Style Container
USA Made Floss Card With POSSIBLE USES ON BACK
USA Made Mini Titanium Blade (Made by ARS Knives)
USA Made PEN FLARE LAUNCHER (http://truflareusa.com/single-shot.htm)
USA Made Signal Mirror (click to see image)
USA Made SLIM RESCUE WHISTLE (LIKE JETSCREAM)
USA Made PLASTIC SIGNALING INSTRUCTION CARDS (MULTIPLE METHODS)
USA Made Clear Plastic Survival Nav Card (click to see image)
USA Made Ferro / Magnesium Rod
USA Made ESEE AH-1 Arrowhead
Fish Hooks (various sizes)
Button Compass
Rare Earth Cylindrical Magnets
SMALL FLASH LIGHT W/ SIGNALING MODE http://inovalight.com/microlight/microlight-clear-body.php
SOME TYPE OF OBJECT THAT CREATES HIGH AMOUNTS OF SMOKE (EVEN JUST SOME RUBBER TO BURN)
Click to expand...

Just curious, but if you know what sorts of things you'd want in this hypothetical kit, what's stopping you from just putting one together yourself?
 
tyr_shadowblade said:
I just want to note that bad guys have handcuffs too. Usually they are cheap ones. Unlikely you'll be cuffed unless your store is being robbed or they want to kidnap you, and if you're not female or worth a substantial amount of ransom they aren't going to kidnap you any longer than it takes to get your PIN code for the ATM. As for lockpicks, sometimes you might be in a situation where the only way to get where you need to be is through a padlocked fence. Sure, you can climb the fence, but what if you're driving a vehicle? Lockpicks take up a lot less room and weight than boltcutters.
Click to expand...


Ted Bundy's first arrest, he had an icepick, nylon stocking for a mask and a pair of handcuffs. Handcuffs are not uncommon items among the criminal element, as you pointed out.

A lot of people that 86 the idea of picks and then say boltcutters and prybars would be the first ones to chunk them in a ditch because of the weight of them.

All good points. :)
 
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