Anti Scale Coatings

It looks like the coating stays on, even after the quench. I am definitely going to try this for my O1 treating.

I wonder how this would work with the high temps stainless requires. There are coatings (ATP-641, Condurzal Z1100) that can work, but I have always been curious how the coating holds up when you have to normalize the piece first. For example, I quench AEB-L twice in plates. Once when normalizing, and then again when doing the HT. Would the coating come off between quenches?
 
bmilleker said:
It looks like the coating stays on, even after the quench. I am definitely going to try this for my O1 treating.

I wonder how this would work with the high temps stainless requires. There are coatings (ATP-641, Condurzal Z1100) that can work, but I have always been curious how the coating holds up when you have to normalize the piece first. For example, I quench AEB-L twice in plates. Once when normalizing, and then again when doing the HT. Would the coating come off between quenches?
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Those were the results using my graphite spray approach. It definitely stays on through the quench and temper. I'm publishing a followup to the process today on bellablades.com. It is tough, non-porous and can be removed by sand-blasting or belt sanding with 400 grit or lighter. This stuff is amazing! I don't know why it took me so long to try it. I am very interested in results from others. If you could let me know, I would appreciate it. My e-mail address is ron@bellablades.com. Thanks
 
RAT Pack said:
Those were the results using my graphite spray approach. It definitely stays on through the quench and temper. I'm publishing a followup to the process today on bellablades.com. It is tough, non-porous and can be removed by sand-blasting or belt sanding with 400 grit or lighter. This stuff is amazing! I don't know why it took me so long to try it. I am very interested in results from others. If you could let me know, I would appreciate it. My e-mail address is ron@bellablades.com. Thanks
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I have 4 O1 blades that I coated last night in Jigaloo Graphite Extreme (http://www.jigaloo.ca/lubricant/3-graphite-extreme.html). I will be heat treating them tonight. I have typically used ATP-641. Which works, but is annoying and messy to apply. The graphite definitely applied easier and more consistently.

I have some AEB-L and Nitro-V to heat treat this week. I am going to make some test coupons to see how the graphite works around the 2000f mark.
 
RatPack, I found your site and read the antiscale article you wrote, decided to try it. I ordered the dry graphite you recommended: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094IZ3BA <$5 shipped. I did a railroad spike knife I forged and boy does that stuff work GREAT!! I'm impressed. THANK YOU for the testing.

bmilleker, please post results with the AEB-L and that high temp stuff. Even though it's only rated to 1,000F it might work at 1950F. Sure like to try that. Have you found a place to purchase it yet? Cost?

Not available on https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002AR379W/

I did find one place that showed it, but had a note: "Shipping Message: This item cannot be shipped via UPS/FedEx/USPS" looks like that means it's pickup only?

There is a place in Canada that has it for $7.55, https://www.affordablelocksmiths.com/jig-a-loo-graphite-extreme/
and shipping is around $15 to USA.
 
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Ken H and bmilleker,

Ken, I'm delighted with your results. Thanks for the update. I'm hoping to put together any info that you guys have--results, steel types, pix, procedures, etc. for another paper addressing use of this process by others in the field. I believe that this could be great for DIYers and blade smiths like ourselves. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.
 
My results with O1 and the graphite seemed to be good and consistent with your guys findings. No scaling, but I did have a layer of decarb before the hardened steel. It has been awhile since I heattreated O1, but I don't recall that thickness of decarb when using ATP-641. What I should have done, is coat half my batch of blades in ATP-641, and the other half in the graphite spray for a real side by side comparison. Hindsight is 2020....

I also ran a coupon of AEB-L through at 1975f for 10 minutes. A layer of scale flaked off during the plate quench, and left a weird layer that I had to get through before hitting clean steal. It wasn't decarb, but looked like more scale. The coupon was very dirty, worse than oil quenched blades. With those results, i'll be sticking to the foil envelopes or try something like the Condurzal Z1100.
 
bmilleker said:
My results with O1 and the graphite seemed to be good and consistent with your guys findings. No scaling, but I did have a layer of decarb before the hardened steel. It has been awhile since I heattreated O1, but I don't recall that thickness of decarb when using ATP-641. What I should have done, is coat half my batch of blades in ATP-641, and the other half in the graphite spray for a real side by side comparison. Hindsight is 2020....

I also ran a coupon of AEB-L through at 1975f for 10 minutes. A layer of scale flaked off during the plate quench, and left a weird layer that I had to get through before hitting clean steal. It wasn't decarb, but looked like more scale. The coupon was very dirty, worse than oil quenched blades. With those results, i'll be sticking to the foil envelopes or try something like the Condurzal Z1100.
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Your experience with O1 is interesting. I tested hardness after removing the graphite without having to use anything stronger than 400 grit--no detectable decarb. At the higher temp, could it have been graphite flaking off? I found this when I sprayed it on too thick or waited a while then sprayed again after it dried, but there was no decarb or scale. I guess more testing it required. Thanks for the input!
 
RatPack, bmilleker, I sure do like the dry graphite better than the boax (roach powder) was using. While the boax works just fine the dry graphite spray is easier to use. Bummer it wouldn't work on AEB-L {g}. If anybody can find a source for the high temp stuff be sure to let us know.
 
RAT Pack said:
Your experience with O1 is interesting. I tested hardness after removing the graphite without having to use anything stronger than 400 grit--no detectable decarb. At the higher temp, could it have been graphite flaking off? I found this when I sprayed it on too thick or waited a while then sprayed again after it dried, but there was no decarb or scale. I guess more testing it required. Thanks for the input!
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I wonder if this could be a difference in brands and how they make their graphite spray. R RAT Pack , in your articles, it looks as though the graphite stays on through the quench. This wasn't the same experience I had with O1. When I quenched, the graphite flaked off in areas. Maybe I applied too much? I did two coats. With only one coat, I didn't think the coverage was that great. I could still see steel through the graphite.

With the AEB-L, it could have been the graphite flaking off. But it left a layer underneath it as well. One more thing to note, it wasn't like an uncoated blade being heat treated. In those scenarios, I would see the scale coming off as soon as I grabbed the steel with tongs. With the AEB-L and O1, both didn't drop scale when taken out of the kiln.

Definitely more testing required for stainless.
 
I
bmilleker said:
I wonder if this could be a difference in brands and how they make their graphite spray. R RAT Pack , in your articles, it looks as though the graphite stays on through the quench. This wasn't the same experience I had with O1. When I quenched, the graphite flaked off in areas. Maybe I applied too much? I did two coats. With only one coat, I didn't think the coverage was that great. I could still see steel through the graphite.

With the AEB-L, it could have been the graphite flaking off. But it left a layer underneath it as well. One more thing to note, it wasn't like an uncoated blade being heat treated. In those scenarios, I would see the scale coming off as soon as I grabbed the steel with tongs. With the AEB-L and O1, both didn't drop scale when taken out of the kiln.

Definitely more testing required for stainless.
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I looked into the Jigaloo graphite spray that you used and noticed that all illustrations showed heavy spraying pattern. Since I know that the graphite spray that I have used so far allows for a light spray, I am thinking that it is possible that it could have been too heavy a coat. Since I grew up painting cars, I am used to what we called a mist coat, followed by a cover coat. In this case, I found out, the hard way, that the coats (only two) must be applied in rapid succession. When I gave a heavier follow-on coat on a test piece, it flaked off in sheets in the quench oil. Since I can't get the Jigaloo graphite spray, I will be performing further tests on some pieces later this week--several thick coats. For the record, when Rockwelled the original test piece after removing the graphite layer with 400 grit, I hit an HRC 51. That is exactly what I would expect for tempering O1 at 750° F. Like I said, still more testing to work out the bugs. Interesting possibilities--I'm not going back to the old ways! Please let me know how you're doing with this as you continue to test. Thanks for the comments!
 
bmilleker said:
I wonder if this could be a difference in brands and how they make their graphite spray. R RAT Pack , in your articles, it looks as though the graphite stays on through the quench. This wasn't the same experience I had with O1. When I quenched, the graphite flaked off in areas. Maybe I applied too much? I did two coats. With only one coat, I didn't think the coverage was that great. I could still see steel through the graphite.

With the AEB-L, it could have been the graphite flaking off. But it left a layer underneath it as well. One more thing to note, it wasn't like an uncoated blade being heat treated. In those scenarios, I would see the scale coming off as soon as I grabbed the steel with tongs. With the AEB-L and O1, both didn't drop scale when taken out of the kiln.

Definitely more testing required for stainless.
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I wanted to get back to you after more testing. I'm now sure that it was just graphite flaking! I just uploaded another paper to my website (bellablades.com) after testing some new pieces to determine the reason for flaking graphite. I found it! I also wanted to test for hardness after the quench. They were quite hard--no decarb. I had some other surprises as well. Take a look and, if you wouldn't mind, let me know what you think. Thanks!
 
bmilleker said:
I wonder if this could be a difference in brands and how they make their graphite spray. R RAT Pack , in your articles, it looks as though the graphite stays on through the quench. This wasn't the same experience I had with O1. When I quenched, the graphite flaked off in areas. Maybe I applied too much? I did two coats. With only one coat, I didn't think the coverage was that great. I could still see steel through the graphite.

With the AEB-L, it could have been the graphite flaking off. But it left a layer underneath it as well. One more thing to note, it wasn't like an uncoated blade being heat treated. In those scenarios, I would see the scale coming off as soon as I grabbed the steel with tongs. With the AEB-L and O1, both didn't drop scale when taken out of the kiln.

Definitely more testing required for stainless.
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I just got an e-mail from another graphite tester. He tested aeb-l at 1975° F for 15 minutes and found no decarb or scale. He then used a Rockwell tester and it tested at HRC 60. If you have been testing any more, i would really appreciate any pix of results and/or your procedures. By the way, he used the Jigaloo graphite spray--no problem. I have also verified that the amount of spray has no effect of graphite peeling off. It will peel a layer if you wait several minutes and then reapply. I hope this helps.
 
RAT Pack said:
I just got an e-mail from another graphite tester. He tested aeb-l at 1975° F for 15 minutes and found no decarb or scale. He then used a Rockwell tester and it tested at HRC 60. If you have been testing any more, i would really appreciate any pix of results and/or your procedures. By the way, he used the Jigaloo graphite spray--no problem. I have also verified that the amount of spray has no effect of graphite peeling off. It will peel a layer if you wait several minutes and then reapply. I hope this helps.
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HRC 60 seems rather low for AEB-L, is that the hardness they were shooting for?
 
Sorry to hijack your thread, but I have a somewhat related question: How important is a coating or foil when heat treating stainless? In particular, will not using any method of preventing scale cause issues or a less than ideal heat treat?

Mark
 
I seem to recall reading that AEB-L increases in hardness with the first temper. I have only measured after tempering, and 60 does seem low.
 
Was the AEB-l measured before the sub-zero treatment ( which should immediately follow the plate quench). AEB-L would still be largely austenite at room temperature from the pates. It has to reach around -95°F/-70°C to finish converting to martensite. It is at least two or three points higher with the sub-zero treatment.
 
bmilleker said:
This seems loooow for aebl. I am usually 65+ after plates and sub zero quench.
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Since I don't use AEB-L, I can only relay what a tester of the Graphite for decarb protection states. I he sent update on his tests yesterday. He compared two test pieces, one in SS foil and the other spayed with graphite. According to him, they tested at the same hardness!!! I plan to compile further test results from others and post it on my DIY site when I get a few more. Thanks fro the interest. if you like, I will ask if I can provide his e-mail address so you can discuss AEB-L with him.
 
RAT Pack said:
Since I don't use AEB-L, I can only relay what a tester of the Graphite for decarb protection states. I he sent update on his tests yesterday. He compared two test pieces, one in SS foil and the other spayed with graphite. According to him, they tested at the same hardness!!! I plan to compile further test results from others and post it on my DIY site when I get a few more. Thanks fro the interest. if you like, I will ask if I can provide his e-mail address so you can discuss AEB-L with him.
Click to expand...

Perfect, that answers my question. My concern was that it interfered with hardening but if it is the same as his other method and is what he expected as a best case that is good news.

RAT Pack, thanks for the follow up.
 
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