Antique blade performance?

Epsilon, Thank you, that was very enlightening. Dr. Edgar C. Bain, could that be where Bainite got it's name? Hmmm.

I'm starting to wonder if all of this science stuff is a help or hinderance. I'm pretty new to all of this metalleurgical stuff, but it seems that there are a lot of scientists that tell us that what has been accomplished in the knife making community isn't possible. I'm more of the belief that.. If we can concieve it we can achieve it. "There's always a way around the fence."

Rick
 
Epsilon, Thank you, that was very enlightening. Dr. Edgar C. Bain, could that be where Bainite got it's name? Hmmm.
Click to expand...

Yep. I believe it was the research staff or maybe it was the commission that felt it necessary to name it after him. I cannot remember. It wasn't his idea. Anyhow, those books also have the bainite work in them.

The metallurgical resources and info abound. The biggest problem I have had with learning it all has been remembering it all! There is so much to retain. No way I could.
 
in rezlin blacks time was a certain part of rendered sperm whale oil. not just the lantern oil.
 
Would you want a civil war surgeon giving you a heart transplant?
would you like to have your teeth fixed in a 1920 dentist office? Go back to chloroform or a shot of whiskey as a pain killer?
How many think a early vintage model T is the equal of todays vehicles in terms or performance?
Science moves all fields forward. Todays steel is so far ahead of what was avaliable 150 years ago its hard to believe.
Studies of civil war firearms and the materials in them show levels of slag and impurities that are orders of magnatude above todays standards.
he TITANIC sank because the steel in the hull was brittle due to high levels of impurities in the plate. This was the BEST material english shipyards could make,and this material was better than what was avalible 90 years earlier in Blacks time.
The standards for rating the cleanliness in bearings are right now being revised because the current method is no longer adaquate.
Todays makers have superior material and access to knowledge that took lifetimes to learn. All this at the touch of a keyboard or on video.
As Albert Einstein ?? stated" If I have seen far it's because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."
 
Gentlemen, the last post was Rex Walter, the man of the steel laboratory who has worked with us for over 3 years investigating what we have accomplished and suggesting where and what we work on next. As you can read, he has a way of making issues simple as well as leaving you a lot to think about.
Now that he has entered the discussion I would suggest he is the man to provide some knowledge toany questions you may have.
Thanks Rex!
 
Rex, Thanks for joining in! Do you know what kind of steel knife makers would have been using 150 years ago (here in the US)? Would most of the alloying elements found in those steels have been accidental or a by-product of the ore used to create the steel. I'm guessing that steel would have varied greatly from source to source since processes were highly guarded secrets back then. Do we have any documented insight as to heat treatment processes that were used to create the high performance knives of yesteryear (in the US or abroad? It seems like there is a lot of legend and not too many facts.

Thanks,
Rick
 
Glad to have you on board Rex!

One thing that has intriged me is how the old patternwelded katanas would perform against modern steels. If I remember they only had carbon and iron, no manganese.
 
Rex, I completely agree with you on standard tool and construction steels. However, I'm not certain this is also true for wootz steel. I've copied a steel analysis made by Verhoeven et al. from this website: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

Table IV. Chemical Analysis of Seven Wootz Damascus Blades*
Element 7 9 10 Old B Figiel Voigt Kard
C 1.71 1.41 1.79 1.51 1.64 1.00 1.49
Mn 150 <100 300 100 200 500 100
P 1,010 980 1,330 950 1,620 260 1,440
S 95 60 160 53 85 115 90
Si 350 500 500 470 460 975 500
Ni 600 400 700 <100 180 <100 200
Cr <100 <100 <100 <100 <100 <100 <100
Mo <100 <100 <100 <100 <100 <100 <100
Cu 1,750 900 1,830 330 780 300 900
Al <10 <10 10 12 8 25 30
V 145 50 270 40 40 <10 60
Nb <100 <100 <100 <100 <100 <100 <100
Pb <10 <10 <10 <10 10 10 40
Sn <10 10 <10 <10 <10 15 <10
Ti 9 11 6 13 16 7 19
Zr <10 <10 <10 <10 <10 <10 <10
B <1 <1 <1 <1 2 <1 <1
Ca 19 17 15 11 2 13 <1
*All analyses are in parts per million by weight, except C, which is in weight percent.

What strikes me most, is the very high carbon percentage. Keep in mind that most of these are sword blades! It seems to me that such high carbon percentages would produce a very hard and brittle sword if it was made using modern steels and methods. These wootz blades however, are very practical swords even with that amount of carbon.

I don't know how the actual performance of these blades will compare to swords made with modern steels and methods, but the high carbon content seems promising.
 
One thing that has intriged me is how the old patternwelded katanas would perform against modern steels. If I remember they only had carbon and iron, no manganese.
Click to expand...

Will, my guess is they had manganese but in typically less quantities than a carbon steel. Since ore, subsequent smelting and further forging likely varied so much though in impurity levels, it throws that variable in all directions. Still, it was mostly carbon and iron. One thing is for sure, silicon was in a lot of them though.

IMHO modern steels (mono) make a better material. The margin of better is debatable, but on average my vote is still better. Better how? Namely, consistancy in results and predictable effects. Plus, you don't deal with welding flaws and such. Unless, of course you are doing modern pattern welding. Otherwise, I'd be out smelting my own ore in pursuit of a better way of doing things.

Just my .02
 
Excellent questiions.
As to what type of steel was used in early blades,refer to KNIVES 2001 page 52. Ed was kind enough to submit an origanal AMES RIFLEMANS knife for examination. This blade was made about 1850. It proved to be a high carbon steel with a few tramp elements. The through hardness indicates incomplete homginization of the alloying elements resulting in hardness which varied about 8 points RC. This is compared to todays heattreaters which hold to +/- 1 point. This variation I feel is due to inconsistances in the steel chemistry.
High carbon content does not necessalry mean an object would be brittle.A fully hardened object can be tempered to releave the brittleness as we all know. In addition brittleness can be influenced by grain size,finer grain being less brittle. Grain size is greatly dependant upon forging techniques and temperatures.

Think of 19th century steel as "patent medicine" Each maker or vendorclaimed theirs was the best because of whatever marketing claims they could come up with. Most users had little choice, they used what was near to hand. There are many records of fur trappers ,traders,bison hunters etc. ordering CASES of knives for a season or two of use. Clearly they expected them to wear out.
The romance of things like the BOWIE knife have become entrenched until objective analysis of its properties are near impossible. I feel we should respect the MAN who used it. He was the key ingredient.
What did that blade really do? It was used as a weapon once or more and its use resulted in death and several injuries. BIG DEAL. Ask any street cop or emergency room nurse what type of instrument it takes to inflict this sort of damage. Check out todays news in Great Britian. A terriost suspect in the Rician poison investigation used a large kitchen knife to kill a policeman who tried to arrrest him. Four other officers were wounded and required hospital treatment before he was subdued. Does that make this blade the equal of Bowie's blade? Was this criminal the man Jim Bowie was? I don't think so. I feel it shows that man is really a rather fragile creature and it does not take a lot to do us damage.
On a lighter note a great deal of early metallurgical study of microstructures was done by the russians on Wootz. Some of this is/was avalible on the internet. If I can find the link I'll post it.
Take care
Rex
 
I feel it shows that man is really a rather fragile creature and it does not take a lot to do us damage.
Click to expand...

You know, its reeeeaaal nice to hear that from someone else for once. :cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top