A'nuther S30V Question (or Two)

C

Confederate

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Wading through the hype surrounding S30V, I'm still trying to wrap my alleged mind around the characteristics and abilities of the S30V miracle steel. My primary question is how it relates to a good, durable carbon steel. Besides being "stainless," what other advantages does it offer? Can S30V take a finer edge and hold it? Is it more or less pliable than, say, Carbon V?

Also, can S30V be efficientially fashioned into longer blades without becoming too brittle? And if so, would it offer any significant benefits?
 
Start off by dumping the "miracle steel" designation. There are no miracle steels. Each alloy is optimized for a particular range of use. There are some get sharper or tougher or more stainless or easier to sharpen and the best of them combine a few premium characteristics. Throw in heat treat and blade geometry, and go out and cut something.

There's good reason to pick a good carbon or tool steel for big blades. Folders tend to spend time in the pocket, so stainlessness becomes a factor. A knife that's used a lot tends to rub off corrosion and maintenance will take care of the rest.

No miracles, though.
 
I agree with Esav. There's so much hype about every new steel that comes out that, soon enough, S30V will probably be "scoffed" at the way the 440's seem to be. There'll be all this "hype" about PM67FS or XX2KB or some other wizard's concoction that D2, S30V, BG42, and the infamous (yes, I know the proper definition and connotation of infamous) "INFI" will be considered "inferior".

I don't buy it. While these new steels are probably indeed "better" than each predecessor, I think we have to quantify "better". There's so much edge holding discussion that we (me too) fall prey to the idea that the edge lasts so much longer than another steel as to be "miraculous". Plus, there's a problem with steels that are so hard they hold their edgenoticeably longer: they're also tougher to sharpen to the type of edge we may be seeking.

Each concoction is an advancement in some degree or other, but the idea that they're "soooo much better" is, to me, hype. I don't buy it.
 
S30V has good corrosion resistance, it is not the most corrosion resistant steel ever by a considerable margin, though. It has good corrosion resistance for its level of wear resistance and hardness.

S30V is not really comparable to typical carbon steels, it has much higher wear resistance and less toughness. It does have the highest toughness for any stainless in its class of wear resistance, and I don't really expect that to ever change. It has lower carbide volume than many PM stainless steels, at about 14.5% volume after heat treatment, but still much higher than most simple carbon steels and 3V. D2 has similar carbide volume, S30V and D2 have similar toughness as well. Higher carbide volume in PM steels also generally means higher average carbide size, S30V has fairly small carbides.

If you're looking for a stainless that is similar to simple carbon steels 13C26 and AEB-L are better choices, they have the same tiny carbides and low carbide volumes for much higher edge stability (ability to hold a fine edge) and toughness. If higher wear resistance is required (for slicing knives cutting very abrasive materials), you can move up to (in order of increasing wear resistance) 19C27, CPM-154, S30V, or S90V. S30V is tougher, more wear resistant, and has higher edge stability than CPM-154, but CPM-154 has greater ease in sharpening. I doubt CPM-154 would have much of an edge over 19C27 as far as wear resistance though, and 19C27 is tougher and has greater edge stability, so if it were an application where even 19C27 didn't have enough wear resistance I would move up to S30V. I would never go any higher in wear resistance than S30V, and probably wouldn't go that high.

Edit: And for large chopping knives I wouldn't use anything more wear resistant than 13C26 or AEB-L, as wear resistance isn't really a factor. 12C27, 12C27M, or even a little lower in carbon would be better. Stainless steels can have similar properties to carbon steels, makers just haven't learned to identify the differences, so they continue to use stainless steels with overly-high wear resistance. All of the simple carbon steels are much lower in wear resistance, but for some reason wear resistance is much more touted when it comes to stainless steels. I haven't figured it out.
 
Confederate said:
My primary question is how it relates to a good, durable carbon steel. Besides being "stainless," what other advantages does it offer?
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Wear resistance and strength. Less tough than a carbon steel.

Can S30V take a finer edge and hold it?
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Not finer but it will hold the edge longer by its wear resistance and for tasks requering strength.

Also, can S30V be efficientially fashioned into longer blades without becoming too brittle?
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Yes but with a thick edge and stock.

dantzk.
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What is the composition of AEB-L, I do not have it on my chart??? (sounds interesting) ...
 
Yes, I think it was Cliff Stamp who argued that S30V's advantage lay primarily in its ability to take a fine edge. If I understood him correctly, he said that unless ground or sharpened very finely, the returns are marginal. The reason I called it a "miracle steel" is because of the way it's often characterized. Then there's the expense. Many of the knives that use it sell from $100 to $500. The Spyderco Native comes in at an almost giveaway price of $40. In short, it seems to have more in common with precious metals at times than steel.

My question is, I suppose, is that except for its stainless characteristics, how does S30V compare to a good grade of carbon steel? If it holds an edge much better, to what extent? Larger knives don't have finely gound edges. Would this be a factor? Finally, if S30V could be made tougher, would it ever be cost effective to make larger blades from it? Presently, S30V seems to be, if I understand it correctly, a very hard, wear resistant steel that holds a fine edge but is too brittle for larger applications.
 
I don't have any strong likes or dislikes when it comes to steels. Obviously a really good stainless like S30V is going to be better than some badly heat treated mild steel, but up at the top end of the range they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

The way I approach it is like this. I try and find comments from people who use a particular knife, or steel, the way I might be going to use it and try to decide from that if it's going to meet my purposes, whatever they may be. I'll go with whatever works in that context, not simply because it's steel X or steel Y.

If you want to hear my experience of S30V, here it is.

I've had a small Sebbie with S30V for several years now. It gets used regularly and with minimal maintenance. It's been covered in everything from oil to blood. About the only care it gets is occasional sharpening or maybe stropping and then I put a few drops of lubricant on the pivot and wipe it down with a Tuff Cloth. It retains a good edge and has shown not the slightest hint of corrosion. For my purposes, this makes S30V a good steel. On the other hand, I managed to snap the point off my SNG, so it's not invincible.
 
Confederate said:
Finally, if S30V could be made tougher, would it ever be cost effective to make larger blades from it? Presently, S30V seems to be, if I understand it correctly, a very hard, wear resistant steel that holds a fine edge but is too brittle for larger applications.
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tougher? you can heat treat it differently for peak toughness, but S30V is still a specific formulation. If you want to make it tougher by changing alloying elements, well, it isn't S30V any more. It wouldn't be cost effective if S30V costs more than other steels, no matter how tough it is. Very hard... I made the mistake of saying that about 440V. I think you mean just too brittle, it isn't very hard when compared to steels that are run 3, 4, or more points harder. We could classify a whole lot of stainless steels as 'too brittle', it isn't something that's a unique issue with S30V.
 
If S30V could be made tougher
If lead could be made lighter
If water could be made drier
If air could be made more solid
If gold could be made cheaper ...
okwut.jpg
 
Composition is .65% C and 12.8% Cr.

Confederate said:
Yes, I think it was Cliff Stamp who argued that S30V's advantage lay primarily in its ability to take a fine edge. If I understood him correctly, he said that unless ground or sharpened very finely, the returns are marginal. The reason I called it a "miracle steel" is because of the way it's often characterized. Then there's the expense. Many of the knives that use it sell from $100 to $500. The Spyderco Native comes in at an almost giveaway price of $40. In short, it seems to have more in common with precious metals at times than steel.

My question is, I suppose, is that except for its stainless characteristics, how does S30V compare to a good grade of carbon steel? If it holds an edge much better, to what extent? Larger knives don't have finely gound edges. Would this be a factor? Finally, if S30V could be made tougher, would it ever be cost effective to make larger blades from it? Presently, S30V seems to be, if I understand it correctly, a very hard, wear resistant steel that holds a fine edge but is too brittle for larger applications.
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I don't think was referring to S30V when he was talking about thin edges.

There is some rope cutting by Phil Wilson showing S30V cutting about twice as long in rope slicing as a carbon steel. Other tests show a more marginal 50% increase. Regardless of what it is there is the drawback of less toughness and more difficult resharpening. In push cutting it would be worse.

If S30V was made tougher it would be less wear resistant, and it would be a different grade of steel. If you want more toughness, move to (in order of increasing toughness) 19C27, 13C26, 12C27, 420HC, 12C27M, or 420. Unfortunately there isn't a really good source for 12C27 or 12C27M right now. You could probably find a good 420HC is you looked hard enough.
 
Confederate said:
Yes, I think it was Cliff Stamp who argued that S30V's advantage lay primarily in its ability to take a fine edge.
My question is, I suppose, is that except for its stainless characteristics, how does S30V compare to a good grade of carbon steel? If it holds an edge much better, to what extent? Larger knives don't have finely gound edges. Would this be a factor? Finally, if S30V could be made tougher, would it ever be cost effective to make larger blades from it? Presently, S30V seems to be, if I understand it correctly, a very hard, wear resistant steel that holds a fine edge but is too brittle for larger applications.
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At the risk of summoning the demons I will state that Cliff would never have argued that unless they were selling ski tickets in the nether regions. Here is his current comment on S30V from his website:
Summary : S30V is a powder metallurgy martensitic stainless steel made by Crucible. It has a high wear resistance which gives it high slicing edge retention on abrasive materials such as cardboard.
​
Chris Reeves already makes his Green Beret knife from S30V, so I would imagine that he considers it tough enough for a large knife as is. Jerry Hossom has done a lot of work with S30V and he also believes that it makes an excellent large knife.

Whether it would be "cost effective" is another question that would be up to the user. The CPM process is expensive. S30V has processing issues (finicky heat treat and tough to grind). If the user absolutely needed the performance, the cost might be worthwhile.
 
This has been very educating and I think I'm beginning to get a good idea about the strengths and weaknesses of this steel. So much time gets spent talking about the strengths of some steels and the weaknesses of "lesser" steels that it becomes difficult to sort things out.

For larger knives, I'd find it impractical to go with S30V and would prefer a good grade of carbon steel. For a nice pocket knife, S30V would be ideal. For defense or rugged outdoor use, I'd prefer a more durable stainless around 440C/AUS8.

Still, I'm gonna get a Spyderco Native as soon as I can get by a Wal*Mart.

Thanks!
 
There are no better steels just steels that are better at some things than others.
S30V is an excellent steel and very good for an EDC type blade. It is even fairly tough for a stainless especially one with that kind of edge holding. Where it is not so good is it does not take a nice polish easily although I have a Lambert custom with a nicely polished S30V blade so it can be done. The same characteristics that make it hold an edge and hard to polish make it more difficult to put a really fine edge on it.

I find 52100 similar to S30V in edge holding ,toughness(maybe a bit better) but easier to sharpen and not the least bit stainless. So not all carbon steel are tough with poor edge holding.

Some of my favourite steels are the mid grade stainless like 440C ,VG10 and even Aus 8.
Becuse they don't have the edge holding of the super steels like S30V they take a better polish and a finer edge as well as being easier to sharpen. 440C is also very very corrosion resistant. 440C is a very under rated steel and in many cases would make a better choice for an EDC blade than S30V especially for a nonknife person.

420HC would make a good stainless for a big chopper that you would normally use carbon steel for. Condor knives in fact uses it in just that way.
 
I don't think anyone said 52100 has poor edge retention, it has low wear resistance.
 
Thanks Larrin!!! for the AEB-L Composition!! I'm always feeding my steel chart.
 
Confederate said:
This has been very educating and I think I'm beginning to get a good idea about the strengths and weaknesses of this steel. So much time gets spent talking about the strengths of some steels and the weaknesses of "lesser" steels that it becomes difficult to sort things out.

For larger knives, I'd find it impractical to go with S30V and would prefer a good grade of carbon steel. For a nice pocket knife, S30V would be ideal. For defense or rugged outdoor use, I'd prefer a more durable stainless around 440C/AUS8.

Still, I'm gonna get a Spyderco Native as soon as I can get by a Wal*Mart.

Thanks!
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Good decision on the Native!

I haven't seen anything in this thread that would lead me to the conclusion that making a larger knife with an S30V blade is impractical. Expensive, maybe, but not impractical. Chris Reeve thinks it is practical.
http://www.chrisreeve.com/greenberet.htm

I doubt that 440C or AUS8 at full hardness would be significantly tougher than S30V. If I wanted a big stainless tough knife and did not want to fuss with S30V I think I would look at 440A underhardened to about 52-54 Rc. But I'd rather have a non-stainless blade for such a knife.

What leads you to your conclusion?
 
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