A'nuther S30V Question (or Two)

[magneto]

Actually, I've owned as many S30V knives as BG42.

Perhaps you can give us a breakdown on their pros and cons then?
Nothing beats firsthand experience. :thumbup:

 

[bruce]

Probably not much help here since I didn't own or use these at the same time, or for the same things.

•Chris Reeve Green Beret (S30V) – Carried it for a while before I retired from the Army. Colonels don't get to cut much so I thought it might be better served by giving it to a Corporal of Marines (M249 gunner), the son of some good friends. I haven't heard back from him on it's accomplishments although I do think he is back from Iraq now.

•Scott Cook Owyhee (S30V) – I sold it unused. I was going to use it as my "go to" field dressing and skinning knife but I got a chance to have a knife made to my specifications so I sold it.

•Chris Reeve Sebenze (BG42) – Used hard as a primary carry folder while in the Army. It cut lots of hard plastic, thick cardboard, rope, and lots of other things. It had no chips, was still sharp enough that a few strokes on a ceramic rod and a chrome steel butcher's steel (I used to be a meat cutter in high school and college before active duty) and it was back to sharp.

•Matt Harildstad Custom Semi-Skinner (BG42 hardened to Rc62) – I've carried this on lot's of big game hunts and haven't had to sharpen it yet!

If you're trying to draw any conclusions from the above, I don't think there are any. My question to Mr. Hossom is purely to understand why BG42 dropped out of the "cool" zone for S30V. Nobody has been able to explain to me what the functional advantages of S30V over BG42 are. I'm not saying there aren't some, I'd just be happy to know what they are.

 

[magneto]

If you're trying to draw any conclusions from the above, I don't think there are any.

I was hoping to draw some. I have no experience with BG-42, but S30V has been very reliable in my opinion. Takes a good edge, keeps it and after I thinned it down good I batoned with it through the knots of some knotty wood to see how bad it would chip out. It didn't. And it didn't dull out.

As for the politcal stuff I couldnt care less, all I want is something that works for me.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Cougar, you either have rules or you don't. You apply them equally or accept you are biased in their application. The quote was corrupted, and most forums treat that as a serious offense.

Larrin, I've heard that explanation too. It appears to me that S30V was designed on paper to be better but when actually produced, had to be "forced" to even be as good! What I'm getting at is whether in practicality, S30V actually delivers a better product than BG42. ...and if so, how much better? I've had knives in both steels and wonder why BG42 was supplanted.

Bruce, I was responding to your implication that S30V doesn't deliver better performance than BG-42, based on your personal experience of having owned both. I gather owning and using aren't the same in this case, and the suggestion that S30V may not have delivered is somewhat speculative. My frustration was/is directed at that type of post as being what has misled people here on the serviceability of S30V.

No I don't like S30V simply because it comes in the sizes I like. I just didn't use much BG-42 because it DIDN'T come is sizes I needed. Not quite the same, as I think you'll agree. BG-42 is now available in a wider range of sizes but I don't use it simply because S30V is better, and CPM-154 is about the same. No reason to change. And no, I didn't continue to work with S30V until it became a great steel. I reluctantly endorsed the steel (quite publically here in BF IIRC) as soon as I made some blades in it and tested them, about two weeks after I received a sample from the first lot Crucible produced. It took me two very full and frustrating days to finally finish that first blade to the level I normally achieve and I honestly didn't want to tell people it was good steel because I really didn't want to ever have to work with it again.

This really isn't about "camps". That suggests there is disagreement based on the same set of facts. In reality, it's about people who have worked with the steel and know how it performs, and others who have read about it and repeat what they have read.

S30V has substantially better wear resistance than BG-42, and is somewhat tougher. The former is based on my own personal experience, plus feedback from customers who have uniformly been amazed with how well it holds an edge. The latter is based on tests by this knifemaker who has used both steels in similar knives with virtually identical edges, and beaten the hell out of both.

BG-42 is still cool, but there are other cool steels around now too. Latrobe even has a couple new steels of their own, AND they can be had in a range of sizes because they now produce plate and not just bar stock. I have a sample of one and hope to get it tested in the next few months.

Sorry if I've allowed my frustration with hearsay to influence my responses, but we've been down this same road a few dozen times now and still end up in the same place with most who read these things not knowing what to believe. Hopefully someone will come out with a completely new stainless that has all the qualities of S30V and be easier to cut, shape, grind and finish. It'll get a couple positive reviews early on and everyone's life will get simpler. I hate S30V. Let me repeat that. I HATE S30V!!

 

[Cougar Allen]

Cougar, you either have rules or you don't. You apply them equally ...

The issue is intent. If you kill someone without the intention to kill that's not murder.

I don't think it was his intention to misquote you, bizarre as it seems out of context. In the context of his other posts, it's just another bit of idiocy -- more idiotic than most, but not with malicious intent.

I can't blame you for being annoyed, though. Even idiots are annoying.

 

[Confederate]

Confederate, you posted:
Larrin and Cliff seem to like them a whole lot, but there are some pretty good reasons why a whole lot of high end knife companies don't make [S30V] their first choice."

Kindly explain why you edited what I said, then ask me to comment on your edited remarks.

Certainly. It was what I thought you were saying at the time. I sometimes don't get a lot of time in front of the computer and I rush through messages. If I missed your meaning, I apologize. The brackets indicate that the interpretation was mine.

I concur with the overall view that their are various aspects of all commercial steels that make them viable for their intended purposes. I'm simply trying to ascertain where the limits of those purposes lie given the various heat treats.

Some steels used are based solely on cost, and we've seen
this adopted on the parts of Gerber and others that have gone to sub-420 "400-series" steels. Other steels strike balances between cost and utility, or wear and toughness. S30V is an advanced stainless steel and it's bound to stir some controversy, but I would remind others that this isn't religion. No one has to die for it.

 

[Confederate]

In the context of his other posts, it's just another bit of idiocy -- more idiotic than most, but not with malicious intent. I can't blame you for being annoyed, though. Even idiots are annoying.

I can assure you that my idiocy was well-intentioned idiocy. But one of the reasons I'm here is to shed my ignorance and become enlightened. This is why I'm trying to find a frame of reference in an area where it's indistinct. I don't make knives, I don't own a high-end knife because I don't need one, but I'm interested in them nevertheless.

I trust that when I say something stupid (and I guarantee I will, probably sooner than later), that you guys will call me on it. I'm here to learn.

 

[knarfeng]

For defense, I want a very tough knife and have settled on AUS8A bladed knives. Even 420 is suitable in some applications. If I were a skydiver, though, I'd want a premium blade that could quickly and efficiently. Ditto for fire and rescue.

What leads you to the conclusion that AUS8 is tough?

Lots of good things about AUS8. It takes a really fine edge and holds it a fair amount of time. I dare say it is tougher than VG10, VG1, or AUS10. But that doesn't make it a "tough" knife steel unless you underharden it. In which case it loses its edge retension.

Aside from cost, what makes you prefer AUS8 for toughness over S30V?

... Some steels used are based solely on cost, and we've seen
this adopted on the parts of Gerber and others that have gone to sub-420 "400-series" steels. Other steels strike balances between cost and utility, or wear and toughness. S30V is an advanced stainless steel and it's bound to stir some controversy, but I would remind others that this isn't religion. No one has to die for it.

If I want to hear preachin' I'll go to church. My pastor is better at it than you are and he doesn't come across so condescendingly.

 

[Confederate]

What leads you to the conclusion that AUS8 is tough?
... I dare say it is tougher than VG10, VG1, or AUS10. But that doesn't make it a "tough" knife steel unless you underharden it. In which case it loses its edge retension.

You answered your own question and followed it up with a meaningless observation. Any knife steel is a compromise between toughness and sharpness, and AUS8 is generally regarded as being very tough. Cold Steel, CRKT and many others use it for their combat knives and Lynn Thompson's infamous videos makes the...um...point that it's a good, tough steel. It may not hold an edge as long as other, more expensive, steels, but that's what compromise is all about.

Aside from cost, what makes you prefer AUS8 for toughness over S30V?

Nothing. One reason I opened this particular thread is to find out more about S30V. Ironically, many people blame consumers for believing too much about what they read here and elsewhere, but much of what we do read is from owners of S30V knives, and there's nothing else we can go on. From the comments of others (above), S30V shouldn't really be considered a "miracle" steel, but it does constitute perhaps the best balance of all desirable traits of any other steel, stainless or carbon, known. Its difficulty in manufacturing, however, makes it costly and unpopular amongst knifemakers. And this is as I presently understand it.

I do plan on picking up a Spyderco Native soon and getting some firsthand experience. In short, cost out of the way, I'd take S30V any day. I had initially wondered why knives weren't offered with larger S30V blades, but that question has been put to rest.

If I want to hear preachin' I'll go to church. My pastor is better at it than you are and he doesn't come across so condescendingly.

Well, we offer a full money back guarantee. Bet your pastor doesn't do that!

 

[knarfeng]

You answered your own question and followed it up with a meaningless observation.

Lynn Thompson's infamous videos makes the...um...point that it's a good, tough steel.

...knife steel is a compromise between toughness and sharpness, and AUS8 is generally regarded as being very tough.

This is the GDF, I will limit my response to: Nonsense. I did nothing of the sort. VG10, VG1, and AUS10 are not known as tough steels. To say that AUS8 is tougher than those does not make it "tough". AUS8 MIGHT be "tough" IF you underhardened it, but AUS6 or AUS4 would be better choices from that steel series for a tough steel. Just as 440A is tougher than 440C.

LT"s demonstrations illustrate nothing of the sort.

WHO is it that regards AUS8 as being very tough??? Define "very tough".
Tough enough for a folder?
Tough enough for a big stabbing blade?
Tough enough for a big chopping blade?

It seems to me that you have chosen AUS8 as your tough steel because CS uses it and you like CS designs for the types of knives you want. IF so, fair enough. But give a basis for your conclusions instead of presenting these sweeping generalities as global truths.

 

[hardheart]

A lot of people on BF share the opinion that aus8 is 'tough', but seemingly in the context of stainless folder blades (though its in plenty of fixed blades as well). I did a google search of BF for aus8 & tough and got 556 results. Sure, I doubt all said 'aus8 is tough', but I could tell just from the excerpts that my memory has not quite failed me yet

I think a lot of this also has to do with how often aus8 is used, and by whom. When BM, Spyderco, Kabar, AMK, Kershaw, etc, use the same steel all the time, people figure it has to have something going for it. It's pretty obvious to most that it isn't highly wear resistant, so they probably figure it's tough, plus it gets put in a lot of knives that people consider beaters.

Maybe it's just cheap and fairly corrosion resistant.

 

[knarfeng]

Hardheart I agree. AUS8 has an excellent combination of edge retension, corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening. It takes a very fine edge because of the fine grain structure. I understand that it is relatively easy to machine, which decreases the cost of its use compared to some other steels. It's a good choice for a pocket knife or a skinning knife.

For a large hard use knife, it would not be my first choice.

 

[Lycosa]

Having one of the finest folders on the market, made with S30V, has anyone asked Chris Reeve about this subject?
Lycosa

 

[Larrin]

Has anyone actually seen an AUS-8 blade chip or break? There are a lot of cheap AUS-8 blades out there, I'm sure they've seen some abuse.

 

[hardheart]

all of mine would roll at the edge.

 

[knarfeng]

Has anyone actually seen an AUS-8 blade chip or break? There are a lot of cheap AUS-8 blades out there, I'm sure they've seen some abuse.

The question was about "large Blades".
I would take that to be blades 6" or longer.
I've not seen a lot of blades that size in AUS8. Since large blades are often subjected to more stressful usages than short blades, I would question the data coming from short blades as to its applicability to large blades.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I can give you some information on a 6" AUS-8 blade. I have a Vaquero Grande which I've used for years in the woods. I clear thorns and small branches from the trail with it. It really takes a beating. The edge is fully serrated, with the typical tiny Cold Steel serrations. Eventually they roll a bit and some have broken off. I don't sharpen the knife. I steel the back of the serrations to straighten them.

 

[Confederate]

VG10, VG1, and AUS10 are not known as tough steels. To say that AUS8 is tougher than those does not make it "tough." AUS8 MIGHT be "tough" IF you underhardened it, but AUS6 or AUS4 would be better choices from that steel series for a tough steel. Just as 440A is tougher than 440C.

I said nothing of VG-10, VG-1 and AUS10 being less tough than AUS8. Nor did I say S30V was less tough. All I said is that AUS8 is considered by many here to be a tough steel relative to other steels that are available. If you unhardened it, I concede it would be tougher. I also concede that AUS4 and AUS6 is tougher, but in striking a balance of desirable traits, AUS8 is considered tough enough to make large bladed knives from and there are many of us that like it. There are tougher steels and steels that aren't as tough. Overall, AUS8 is considered a decent midlevel stainless that sharpens easily and maintains an edge reasonably. But let me ask you: what makes you think that AUS8 isn't tough?

It seems to me that you have chosen AUS8 as your tough steel because CS uses it and you like CS designs for the types of knives you want. IF so, fair enough. But give a basis for your conclusions instead of presenting these sweeping generalities as global truths.

Is your distaste of Cold Steel behind all this?

Yes, I like Cold Steel, but I'd certainly pick other brands if money was no object. You sound as though I don't like higher grade steels and this is certainly not the case. Jerry Hossom stated earlier: "Sorry if I've allowed my frustration with hearsay to influence my responses, but we've been down this same road a few dozen times now and still end up in the same place with most who read these things not knowing what to believe. Hopefully someone will come out with a completely new stainless that has all the qualities of S30V and be easier to cut, shape, grind and finish. It'll get a couple positive reviews early on and everyone's life will get simpler. I hate S30V. Let me repeat that. I HATE S30V!!"

Consumers seem to love S30V. Knifemakers seem to detest it. Everyone seems to want better steels, but in most cases there's always a price to be paid and concessions made. If technology one day stumbles on the right knife making material, who knows? Perhaps all knife blades will be made out of the same substance.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Do you know why companies make blades in AUS8?

Because they are not being made in the United States or Europe...

 

[magneto]

In case someone is interested in reading about some different steels (including AUS-8 and S30V) and there qualities, here is a link.

http://ajh-knives.com/metals.html