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Any ACL repair opinions?
- Thread starter Bruce Bump
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2001
- Messages
- 231
Bruce,
I feel your pain, literally. I've torn both of my ACL's multiple times and have had one replaced (they used the center section of my patella tendon).
Based on my experience, don't have the surgery to replace it if you don't absolutely need it. My understanding is that even though you have less actual tissue there, it can actually become stronger (that may be something I imagined hearing, I don't remember). I do know that you can regain a lot of strength in your joint by strengthening the surrounding muscles (quadriceps, hamstring, calves etc.) and they can actually do the work of the ligament.
The knee that I had the replacement done on (by a surgeon who does a lot of the pro sports teams here) is still kinda "loose" feeling and I can dislocate it fairly easily (not by choice I assure you, it hurts a lot coming out and going in). The other knee that has not had the replacement while not as strong as a normal knee is much more stable than my replacement ACL.
All of my ACL tears have been partial. Braces, as neat as they look, cannot really brace your knees that well, even the big pro sports ones. If you look at how much meat they have to clamp on to and if you think about how much your bones can move despite that, you'll know what I mean.
The best way to recover is to really get strong legs and there's no way around it as far as I'm concerned. I no longer run (unless something's chasing me) or play any contact sports or anything that requires quick direction changes. I walk slow and deliberately. It's not that I can't do those things, I can, I just really don't want to have to have another knee surgery in this lifetime if I can help it (I think I'm up to 4). I can lift weights and I even do squats (not all the way down but about 75 degrees I guess) and I can leg press about 700 pounds so I'm not decrepit, just careful.
Later,
Rob
(35 years old with shot knees)
I feel your pain, literally. I've torn both of my ACL's multiple times and have had one replaced (they used the center section of my patella tendon).
Based on my experience, don't have the surgery to replace it if you don't absolutely need it. My understanding is that even though you have less actual tissue there, it can actually become stronger (that may be something I imagined hearing, I don't remember). I do know that you can regain a lot of strength in your joint by strengthening the surrounding muscles (quadriceps, hamstring, calves etc.) and they can actually do the work of the ligament.
The knee that I had the replacement done on (by a surgeon who does a lot of the pro sports teams here) is still kinda "loose" feeling and I can dislocate it fairly easily (not by choice I assure you, it hurts a lot coming out and going in). The other knee that has not had the replacement while not as strong as a normal knee is much more stable than my replacement ACL.
All of my ACL tears have been partial. Braces, as neat as they look, cannot really brace your knees that well, even the big pro sports ones. If you look at how much meat they have to clamp on to and if you think about how much your bones can move despite that, you'll know what I mean.
The best way to recover is to really get strong legs and there's no way around it as far as I'm concerned. I no longer run (unless something's chasing me) or play any contact sports or anything that requires quick direction changes. I walk slow and deliberately. It's not that I can't do those things, I can, I just really don't want to have to have another knee surgery in this lifetime if I can help it (I think I'm up to 4). I can lift weights and I even do squats (not all the way down but about 75 degrees I guess) and I can leg press about 700 pounds so I'm not decrepit, just careful.
Later,
Rob
(35 years old with shot knees)
- Joined
- Dec 17, 1999
- Messages
- 4,117
Graymaker,
This I couldn't tell you exactly, I am a novice only with experiential basis as Acupuncture and herbalogy has been my main source of health care for some time now. The lay explaination would be the Tendon lotion contains stricnine and alcohol. So does the Dit Da Jow (alcohol only no stricnine). The alocohol has certain transdermal absorption properties. As the Ligament is really not that far from the skin there is not that much space to travel. When you injure your self in such a way, you create a blockage. That's why it will swell and bruise. So the fuids in the injured area are stagnant. Your body will take a long time to disperse them. It's also the body's way of welling up white blood cells and other healing agents in the injured area. So there really isn't much going on other than a pooling of fluid with very little run off. The linaments are able to penetrate all that pooling to the injured tissue. For some God only know's reason, they are able to help disperse the stagnant blood and damaged tissue quicker than the body can alone. Same with the needles in acupunture. Like when you stick a lightening rod in the ground during a storm, it will probably get hit by lightening. Well, electricity is all around us and it has been proven it is a huge part of what makes us move and talk and feel. Electrical impulses. So, like a lightening rod, you peirce the skin with the neddle which will in a small way harness the electrical energy around us. Part of what we are taking in when we breath oxygen is electricity of sorts. Find the right point on the body that would best facilitate healing in the area and peice it with the needle and you can harness that electricity. When you hurt your self, you create a blockage of that energy, the idea is to kind of suppliment the body's own eletricity with that of tha atmosphere. Where as the linaments job is to create a chemical reaction as well. Being that we are running on a sort of electricity, the healing agents in the body (chemicals) conytain that electricty, so to come up with a linament that can effect the chemicals in the body means effecting the electricity in the body to some degree. So essentially the linaments are pulling the electricity from the body to thearea, taking any excess from surrounding areas to stabalize the injured area. Where as the acupuncture takes it from boththe atmosphere as well as effecting a chemical/eeletrical change in the body. As you know, poking the skin creates all kinds of chemical changes in the body. Just depends on what kinds of changes to what kind of pierce or poke. Some helpful, some detrimental (Acupuncture -positive piercingand chemical reaction/ Stabbing- negative piercing and negative reaction. Hope that explains it, damn...I am a long winded mutha
This I couldn't tell you exactly, I am a novice only with experiential basis as Acupuncture and herbalogy has been my main source of health care for some time now. The lay explaination would be the Tendon lotion contains stricnine and alcohol. So does the Dit Da Jow (alcohol only no stricnine). The alocohol has certain transdermal absorption properties. As the Ligament is really not that far from the skin there is not that much space to travel. When you injure your self in such a way, you create a blockage. That's why it will swell and bruise. So the fuids in the injured area are stagnant. Your body will take a long time to disperse them. It's also the body's way of welling up white blood cells and other healing agents in the injured area. So there really isn't much going on other than a pooling of fluid with very little run off. The linaments are able to penetrate all that pooling to the injured tissue. For some God only know's reason, they are able to help disperse the stagnant blood and damaged tissue quicker than the body can alone. Same with the needles in acupunture. Like when you stick a lightening rod in the ground during a storm, it will probably get hit by lightening. Well, electricity is all around us and it has been proven it is a huge part of what makes us move and talk and feel. Electrical impulses. So, like a lightening rod, you peirce the skin with the neddle which will in a small way harness the electrical energy around us. Part of what we are taking in when we breath oxygen is electricity of sorts. Find the right point on the body that would best facilitate healing in the area and peice it with the needle and you can harness that electricity. When you hurt your self, you create a blockage of that energy, the idea is to kind of suppliment the body's own eletricity with that of tha atmosphere. Where as the linaments job is to create a chemical reaction as well. Being that we are running on a sort of electricity, the healing agents in the body (chemicals) conytain that electricty, so to come up with a linament that can effect the chemicals in the body means effecting the electricity in the body to some degree. So essentially the linaments are pulling the electricity from the body to thearea, taking any excess from surrounding areas to stabalize the injured area. Where as the acupuncture takes it from boththe atmosphere as well as effecting a chemical/eeletrical change in the body. As you know, poking the skin creates all kinds of chemical changes in the body. Just depends on what kinds of changes to what kind of pierce or poke. Some helpful, some detrimental (Acupuncture -positive piercingand chemical reaction/ Stabbing- negative piercing and negative reaction. Hope that explains it, damn...I am a long winded mutha
RDT,
With all due respect, there is NO WAY that a linament will penetrate into the knee joint ( to the ACL) transdermally. The only way to get it into the joint would be a direct injection, and injecting alcohol in any form into a joint would be a bad idea.
No one really knows how acupuncture works, particularly in a Western population - it appears to work better in Asia. Could be more expert practitioners, more cultural belief, who knows.
Having said all that, I will tell you, as a surgeon, that doctors do not come close to knowing everything , and that every time we learn something new, it just brings up more questions. Any doctor who does not admit this is not being honest to himself or his/her patients. I try to have an open mind, and will tell my patients who do not want surgery that they can try anything they wish, as long as it is something I know will not cause them harm.
With all due respect, there is NO WAY that a linament will penetrate into the knee joint ( to the ACL) transdermally. The only way to get it into the joint would be a direct injection, and injecting alcohol in any form into a joint would be a bad idea.
No one really knows how acupuncture works, particularly in a Western population - it appears to work better in Asia. Could be more expert practitioners, more cultural belief, who knows.
Having said all that, I will tell you, as a surgeon, that doctors do not come close to knowing everything , and that every time we learn something new, it just brings up more questions. Any doctor who does not admit this is not being honest to himself or his/her patients. I try to have an open mind, and will tell my patients who do not want surgery that they can try anything they wish, as long as it is something I know will not cause them harm.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 9,910
Billf, Welcome to Bladeforums. Its good to have a doctor on staff. especially one who likes knives. Do you make them? Hope we can help you too.
I think at the quick rate Im healing the surgery may just wait. The surrounding tissue looks good, seems to be just the ACL. Not having one now has made me walk like those Old Guys in front of the local tavern but maybe I will get back to normal yet. Im forging next week!
I think at the quick rate Im healing the surgery may just wait. The surrounding tissue looks good, seems to be just the ACL. Not having one now has made me walk like those Old Guys in front of the local tavern but maybe I will get back to normal yet. Im forging next week!
- Joined
- Sep 26, 1999
- Messages
- 4,486
OUCH !!!!!!!
Man you was just getting back in the shop more also.Let it heal how ever you fell is the best way,just get better and back in the shop,get a good stool for the time being,you can forge a blade under the press and grind setting down
Hope you get to feeling better soon.
Bruce
Man you was just getting back in the shop more also.Let it heal how ever you fell is the best way,just get better and back in the shop,get a good stool for the time being,you can forge a blade under the press and grind setting down
Hope you get to feeling better soon.
Bruce
- Joined
- Dec 17, 1999
- Messages
- 4,117
billf
I understand your concern but actually there is a way and the transdermal way with this linament does work. I only know because I have used it for many inuries in the last 12 years on myself and others and it has worked every time,...every time. Injecting alcohol would of course be a bad idea, I never suggested any such thing. The combination of a wrapped ace bandage over the soaked cotton balls and your own body heat can really generate some serious blood flow through the area. Your skin has pores and the liquid will travel into them just as say the warning label on certain chemicals used in the shop like acetone and such, say to wash your hands immediately that it may cause skin irritation and such, that irritation is not just the outer layer, that is also underneath the skin. How did it get there ? transdermally. The epidermis is the protector, the lower layers are what's being protected, yet there is always a way in. Basically, ya can't knock it until ya try it and there are a lot of things modern western medicine doesn't acknowledge or understand mostly because as super capitalists they are under the pressure of competition with natural procedures that may deter people from going with surgery or drugs that make Physicians, and most especially the Pharmeceautical industry and Medical industry altogether, ALOT OF MONEY ! more than you or I or any Acupuncturist will ever see. I know what I know because I live it and feel it as well as see it. In myself and many other friends throughout the martial arts, Traditional chinese medicine, Homeopathy community of which I am a small part of here in NYC. I also worked as an Asst. Registrar for a Medical School and have known many Physicians. I definately have to agree that it may work best in the East as that's where it is really practiced but there are people here in the US who know how to heal you as well. Like a martial arts teacher or a mechanic or anything else, you have to do a little homework so you know he or she is the real deal. Particularly with healers, you should find out their credentials and where they learned and if possible there might even be a "lineage" they studied through a family even ? Most of them will go to accredited Acupuncture/Herbology schools in most major cities. I agree with you however that so many injuries and illness will raise even more questions on healing and how to and what to use, etc. That I think may be think link between Eastern and Western thought. Combine the two as many do here in NY and you can probably come up with a few more solutions that just one or the other (just East, just West). That is why I said that surgery may not be a bad idea but also told of those I knew who had the surgery and did not have the surgery and both were suffering some sort or discomfort years later. Even those who received herbal therapy still feel some discomfort once in a while, it's a nasty inury. Anyway, as far as transdermal I think the better word would be transpiration. If the skin can perspire and let liquid out it can also take in liquid as the skin is the largest organ in/on the body. It breaths, has poors, if it can excrete, secrete, it can also absorb. While all may not believe this it is becoming more widely known and has always been known as far as medicine is concerned in Asia and yes in Europe and South America and just about anywhere there were healers using what was available (nature) to heal. With all that said, I can no longer talk, I am exhautsted ...he,he. Hey Bruce, if ya want I can get you some of the linament I was talking about. Take care....Rich
I understand your concern but actually there is a way and the transdermal way with this linament does work. I only know because I have used it for many inuries in the last 12 years on myself and others and it has worked every time,...every time. Injecting alcohol would of course be a bad idea, I never suggested any such thing. The combination of a wrapped ace bandage over the soaked cotton balls and your own body heat can really generate some serious blood flow through the area. Your skin has pores and the liquid will travel into them just as say the warning label on certain chemicals used in the shop like acetone and such, say to wash your hands immediately that it may cause skin irritation and such, that irritation is not just the outer layer, that is also underneath the skin. How did it get there ? transdermally. The epidermis is the protector, the lower layers are what's being protected, yet there is always a way in. Basically, ya can't knock it until ya try it and there are a lot of things modern western medicine doesn't acknowledge or understand mostly because as super capitalists they are under the pressure of competition with natural procedures that may deter people from going with surgery or drugs that make Physicians, and most especially the Pharmeceautical industry and Medical industry altogether, ALOT OF MONEY ! more than you or I or any Acupuncturist will ever see. I know what I know because I live it and feel it as well as see it. In myself and many other friends throughout the martial arts, Traditional chinese medicine, Homeopathy community of which I am a small part of here in NYC. I also worked as an Asst. Registrar for a Medical School and have known many Physicians. I definately have to agree that it may work best in the East as that's where it is really practiced but there are people here in the US who know how to heal you as well. Like a martial arts teacher or a mechanic or anything else, you have to do a little homework so you know he or she is the real deal. Particularly with healers, you should find out their credentials and where they learned and if possible there might even be a "lineage" they studied through a family even ? Most of them will go to accredited Acupuncture/Herbology schools in most major cities. I agree with you however that so many injuries and illness will raise even more questions on healing and how to and what to use, etc. That I think may be think link between Eastern and Western thought. Combine the two as many do here in NY and you can probably come up with a few more solutions that just one or the other (just East, just West). That is why I said that surgery may not be a bad idea but also told of those I knew who had the surgery and did not have the surgery and both were suffering some sort or discomfort years later. Even those who received herbal therapy still feel some discomfort once in a while, it's a nasty inury. Anyway, as far as transdermal I think the better word would be transpiration. If the skin can perspire and let liquid out it can also take in liquid as the skin is the largest organ in/on the body. It breaths, has poors, if it can excrete, secrete, it can also absorb. While all may not believe this it is becoming more widely known and has always been known as far as medicine is concerned in Asia and yes in Europe and South America and just about anywhere there were healers using what was available (nature) to heal. With all that said, I can no longer talk, I am exhautsted ...he,he. Hey Bruce, if ya want I can get you some of the linament I was talking about. Take care....Rich
RDT
Perhaps you misunderstood my reply, and I am sorry if it was not clear. Yes, there are substances which can cross the skin, to a VERY limited degree, and perhaps make it as far as the muscular level.
Linaments in general work via inflammation - ie they irritate the skin and subcutaneous tissue and do in fact increae blood flow.
The problem with the ACL is that it is buried in the middle of the knee joint, surrounded by muscle, bone, capsule and fluid. There is NO WAY a linament can penetrate to the ACL and cause it to heal.
Now, as far as making the muscles and the whole leg feel better, that is another story, and various linaments may help quite a bit in this regard
Bruce,
If your leg is already feeling better, that is good news, especially if the swelling is going down. There is no down side to waiting to see how you heal on your own. If the leg feels ustable after a few months, you can always have surgery then. The results of surgery after several months are every bit as good as having it done immediately. No matter when a surgery is done, a patient needs 3-6 months of intensive physical therapy following it, which is quite a time committment.
thanks also for the welcome. I've been an amateur forger for about 5 years, and have had help from Dan Maragni, Tim Zowada, Kevin Cashen , Randy Martin and Bill Saindon. Obviously, I do not have a great deal of time to devote to this between work and kids sports, bbut I enjoy it and have found knifemakers to be some of the nicest and most helpful folks there are, and I'm happy to be able to help out with my area of expertise
Perhaps you misunderstood my reply, and I am sorry if it was not clear. Yes, there are substances which can cross the skin, to a VERY limited degree, and perhaps make it as far as the muscular level.
Linaments in general work via inflammation - ie they irritate the skin and subcutaneous tissue and do in fact increae blood flow.
The problem with the ACL is that it is buried in the middle of the knee joint, surrounded by muscle, bone, capsule and fluid. There is NO WAY a linament can penetrate to the ACL and cause it to heal.
Now, as far as making the muscles and the whole leg feel better, that is another story, and various linaments may help quite a bit in this regard
Bruce,
If your leg is already feeling better, that is good news, especially if the swelling is going down. There is no down side to waiting to see how you heal on your own. If the leg feels ustable after a few months, you can always have surgery then. The results of surgery after several months are every bit as good as having it done immediately. No matter when a surgery is done, a patient needs 3-6 months of intensive physical therapy following it, which is quite a time committment.
thanks also for the welcome. I've been an amateur forger for about 5 years, and have had help from Dan Maragni, Tim Zowada, Kevin Cashen , Randy Martin and Bill Saindon. Obviously, I do not have a great deal of time to devote to this between work and kids sports, bbut I enjoy it and have found knifemakers to be some of the nicest and most helpful folks there are, and I'm happy to be able to help out with my area of expertise
- Joined
- Dec 17, 1999
- Messages
- 4,117
That does make sense now. As the ACL is surrounded by other tissue the linament would probably disperse any welling of blood and stagnant fluids around the acl bringing down the selling and bruising in surrounding areas to facilitate some healing. My old Kali teacher had a broken bone in his foot once and didn't realize it, he just thought it was some form of muscle pain. So he went and had an ex ray and low and behold a broken bone. So, he already had an Herb doctor in China town and I went with him to see him. He examined him for about 10 minutes and then gave his foot a bath in some herbs. Then he gave him a few bags of herbs to boil and soka his foot in every night for two weeks. BAM ! within the first week he was walking perfectly normalk and teaching class and kicking our asses all around the place. He felt no more pain after tha either. I had a similar treatment for a torn rotator cuff years back. I would boil the herbs and make a terrible tasting tea, but it would some how create a light heat in the area and after a few weeks and a few acupuncture treatments it was gone. It will click once in a while now and when I go to the GYM if I lift improperly or excessive weight, I will feel a pinch but that's common really. Take care....RDT
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2001
- Messages
- 8,474
Hey Bruce
it was the ACL that my sister tore out
they went in through a small hole with a camera and
worked through another small
hole and cleaned out what was in the way.
and let her build up by exercising the other muscles to compensate
for it. it was almost a full year for the pain to fully go away.
once she stops the exercise for some time, she said the nee
will let you know it's time to build it up again, not by pain
but in the way it feels and works..
hers was torn off completely.
it was the ACL that my sister tore out
they went in through a small hole with a camera and
worked through another small
hole and cleaned out what was in the way.
and let her build up by exercising the other muscles to compensate
for it. it was almost a full year for the pain to fully go away.
once she stops the exercise for some time, she said the nee
will let you know it's time to build it up again, not by pain
but in the way it feels and works..
hers was torn off completely.