Any evidence concerning folder failure?

[Ken Cook]

I see lots of posts where some here seem to live in dread of a folder (of what ever locking mechanism) failing during the "Moment of Truth."
So, my question is, aside from anecdotal incidents, has anyone here, actually suffered an unintentional unlock DURING A KNIFE FIGHT and did it in any way affect the outcome?
No stories that start with "My cousin has a friend whose Uncle once knew a guy who..."
I'll "give credit" for anything from the Ayoob Files or actual police files (Sorry, no X Files!) but I'd rather hear first hand.

BTW, I'm NOT looking for war stories, got enough of my own. So, if you don't want to go into details, I'll understand. I just want to know how valid a concern this is, since it gets so much bandwidth.

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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 

[sing]

Ken,

It'll be interesting to hear though I suspect there won't be many such stories (thankfully). But, I'll have to say that regardless of the lack of stories of lock failure in life/death situations, it is still of CONCERN when you hear people having lock failure in day to day (perhaps hard) usage. Here, after cutting fingers, they can at least stop and say, "geeze, better look after that nasty cut." In a street situation, it's like partially disarming oneself.

My first lock failure was with an Apache which I used for drills. I tested it after reading some of JoeT's posts. Let me tell you -- I nearly flipped out. The lock disengaged with lightest tap on the spine. If I had just gone in the wrong direction in the slashing drills with a heavy hanging roll of taped newspapers or had the roll bounced back in "Murphy" fashion, I would have been visiting the hospital...

Sort of a related example, I have a friend who got into a "situation". He pulled a cheap, expandable baton. This thing wrapped around the BIG BG's head with no apparent affect. He ended okay using it as a pommel. He said never ever again will he rely on a cheap piece of equipment to protect his life. (This is the gist of his comments which were laced with unprintable expletives...)

Having confidence in your equipment is paramount. It's one less thing to worry about since you have enough with the BG (or BGs) in front of you...

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 01 April 1999).]

 

[Ken Cook]

Sing,
This is one of those things where it's entirely possible that the people who COULD tell me are all dead! (But, I don't think so.)
Your story is just the kind of thing that I'm talking about though. There's a difference between hitting a tightly wound roll of news print (pretty though material there!) and hitting FLESH! Flesh "gives" when it's struck. I know, winter clothing etc, but still, there have been too many people killed with Barlow knives and SAKs for me to really consider this much of a problem.
I'm genuinely interested in finding out if I'm wrong.

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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!



[This message has been edited by Ken Cook (edited 01 April 1999).]

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

Just food for thought...

I've carried knives for about 26 years, and so far have never been in a knife fight. In that same amount of time, I have used a knife, of various types and styles, for thousands and thousands of other things, with many times the knife folding up on me when I didn't want it to. But, all those times, I wasn't even carrying a lock-er, so I was prepared.

To me, the question is not whether the _locking_ knife will fold when in the battle and Murphy strikes, but whether it will fold the hundreds of other opportunities in everyday use. As far as tactical, I could probably make do with a large pocket-knife without a lock, as my only defense is probably going to be a slashing defense. I buy the reliable lock-er for all those other times, and will be glad I have it when TSHTF. That's why no liner locks for me. Incidentally, I have had a liner-locked knife fold unexpectedly on me many times. It only cut me once, because I never trusted it after that. And I've never bought another one. As much as I want a Military, I doubt I'll ever even buy that, because it liner-locks.

O_D

Sorry no tactical anecdotes

 

[Cougar Allen]

A lockback failed Mad Dog in a situation in his youth, one of the reasons he is not a fan of folding knives these days. His fingers were cut pretty badly and he found himself in an even more difficult situation but managed to survive, obviously.... He posted about it in the Ground Zero Forum months ago -- at least I think it was in the Ground Zero Forum.

That's the only post I've seen about a lock failure in a fight. I'm not sure how meaningful it is to collect statistics on failures in fights, though.

I've seen at least one post suggesting in stick against blade you could strike the back of your opponent's knife and fold it up on his fingers. It's a thought.... I think there are few if any locks that could resist a good whack with an ASP.

-Cougar Allen :{)

 

[Samurai6]

I have read many first person reports of accidental folder lock releases over the past couple of years. I've caused them to fail in practice and in testing. I don't need to have them fail in a fight to read the writing on the wall. I have a pretty good idea of their capabilities and limitations, and though it is possible to use folders within that envelope, it is sub-optimal.

I love folders. I NEED folders. I just don't have any delusions about their strength and reliability.

Harv

 

[Ken Cook]

Thanks for the posts guys, but I'm not hearing anything that will sway me one way or the other.
Outlaw, My experiance has been just the opposite. I've been in three knife fights, both while doing my thing for Uncle Sam I was carrying fixed blades at the time.
Fixed blades were fine then because the last thought on my mind was concealment. The knives involved were a Randall Mod 14, a Gerber MKII, and a Western Boot knife. (The last two were chosen because they fit so well on my LBE Suspenders. (The reasons we do things, eh?)
I now carry either an AFCK or an AFCK Mini on a daily basis and do all the things that most people do with their knives, and maybe a few things that many don't! (Like fixing aircraft!) I've NEVER had one of these things fold up on me.
I used to carry a Spyderco Police, but due to it's lock placement, it was ALWAYS unlocking on me. I never cut myself with it, but I put that down to safe knife handling practices learned in the Boy Scouts many years ago.

Cougar Allen,
Stick vs. Knife? It's possible, but it ain't easy! I (for one) won't hold it out there long enough for someone to actually strike the knife in my hand. Danny Inosanto could do this I'm sure, but the kind of guy that I'm likely to have to face in a TacSit these days doesn't come ANYWHERE near that level of training. The BG probably doesn't know what an "Inosanto" is! I'd consider it much more likely that a moderatly well trained individual might get an armstrike on me, which could be just as bad or worse, but refusing to carry a folder on the grounds that someone may strike the blade and cause it to fold doesn't seem realistic. Hell, I'd probably lose my grip on a fixed blade if that happened anyway.

Steve Harvey,

Sure, you've caused them to fail. The question is, How hard did you have to try? We used to joke about there being no such thing as "GI Proof." Meaning, if it exists, a GI can break it given sufficient motivation!

A tactical folder IS suboptimal. Optimal would be that Randall Mod 14 or a Cold Steel Trail Master, or maybe even an Al Mar Alaskan Bowie. Fact is though, I can't carry any of those on a regular basis, so any knife I carry is going to be less than "Optimal."
For that matter, My .45 is OPTIMAL! But I can't carry that everywhere I go either. (Work for example.) So what I'm looking for is a good knife, low profile, doesn't scare the sheeple too badly, and WON"T let me down in the proverbial crunch.
I think I've found it in the AFCK, but there are lots of people here who think I'm nuts for trusting a knife, that after about four years of carry, has NEVER let me down.
I have no desire to "collect" statistics or war stories. Got enough of my own and wish I didn't. So I'm just trying to make sure that I don't have any delusions either.

BTW, I'd STILL like to know of any documentable combat failures.


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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

Ken,

Interesting post. If you've been in two knife fights, you probably have experienced two more than 95% (yep, pulled that one out my you-know-where) of the people. So, in that case, I personally would place a LOT of faith in your observations. Tactically. But, the fact remains, I've never had a lock back fail me. I have had a liner fail me. In mundane tasks. But, you could almost convince me to go buy that Spydie Military, based on your experience with the AFCK. Almost. I love the handle and blade of both those knives, but have resisted sucessfully the desire to buy either due to the lock.

Keep usin' the AFCK. Sounds like it works for you. And it sounds like you have enough experience to use it successfully in the trenches, if you have to. Here's hoping you never have to.

O_D

 

[Cougar Allen]

Speaking for myself, fear of lock failure is not the reason I like real knives for social purposes; in fact I've suggested if you really think your local sheeple or authorities see folding knives that much differently from real knives you could carry a folding knife open in a pocket sheath and it's unlikely anybody will ever notice they didn't see you open it. In other words, interpreting the Commandment "Thou shalt not fold thy knife" literally.

Even so, I don't think the widespread concern about lock failure is at all out of proportion -- by all means, if you're going to use a knife that *can* fold for any purpose at all, make as sure as possible it won't fold when you don't want it to. Even if we never find a second report of a knife folding in the middle of a fight.

In my childhood I trained with and used slip-joints, gripping the knife with my forefinger on the ricasso. I was browsing the web recently and found an interesting knife on Madpoet's site, a traditional folder made like a folding straight razor with no lock or even spring. Maybe that's a direction folder makers could go, using your hand to hold it open -- alone or as a backup to a mechanical lock.

-Cougar Allen :{)

http://www.angelfire.com/mn/madpoet/

 

[Ken Cook]

Outlaw, just for the sake of factual record keeping, it was three, but that was three too many.
Cougar,
That's an interesting blade. I can't tell by looking at the picture, but I wonder if it folds back like a straight razor does.
The proper method of employment for straight razors is to hold the handle in your hand with the blade folded back against your knuckls and your thumb bracing the back of the spur to hold everything solid. Then Punch and swipe with your fist. Horrible damage in very short order. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to convince the curious LEO that you actually SHAVE with the damn thing! (I tried to learn years ago. Bloody mess!)

I can't vouch for any expertise in the area of knife fighting or blade combat, whatever you call it. I can't lay claim to superior training or special ability of any kind. I think my continued survival is due to only two things.
1. I wanted very badly to not die.
2. Blind stupid luck
I've HAD training, I just don't remember the events clearly enough to tell you if I used any of it.
God rest the Souls that fought and died,
God save the Souls that fought and lived.

 

[Samurai6]

Ken,

I've never had a folding knife close on me during regular use either, but I know what an Inosanto is, though I am far from being one. Some of the knives I've used have failed just from moderate, bare-handed closing pressure, just like you would use to close up a slip-joint. I have never had an accidental release of any of the four AFCKs that I have used and evaluated. I have seen so many other liner locks fail that I consider the AFCK an anomaly. I had two Mini AFCKs that, would release from hand pressure under certain conditions. I make my judgements based on what I expect from a folding knife. I don't abuse knives and then crab because they are not indestructible.

What do you instinctively do when a knife is thrust at you?

You try to deflect it. It is natural for a knife to get struck on the spine during a fight. That is the dull part. A folder has to be able to tolerate a moderate smack on the spine while being held in a "gorilla grip", or it is a liability in terms of defense.

But hey, I still carry folders most of the time because it is legal to carry them concealed in CA., and if the need arose, I would use them in self-defense. I just know their limitations, and try to keep those limitations in mind. I also go looking for the most reliable locks I can find. That involves testing and evaluating and learning, which has been a valuable experience for me.

If folder lock reliability is no big deal to you, great, but that doesn't mean it is not an issue to anyone else, right?

Harv

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 02 April 1999).]

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

DOH! Sorry Ken.

O_D

 

[speedrck]

I suggest a cut proof glove for hard core testing . With the glove you can give it all you got without worrying about losing a digit.So far the most secure of the midpriced knives is the Gerber Covert with the linelock safety. I'd go all out with this knife any day without the glove.
speedrck

 

[Cougar Allen]

If you can find a glove that really is cut proof.... None of the kevlar gloves on the market are. Some of the chain mail gloves might be. See if you can chop through the glove before you trust it.

-Cougar Allen :{)

 

[Samurai6]

To heck with gloves, I do my initial lock testing with the knife duct-taped to a stick.

Harv