Any negatives to high temp normalizing W2?

[flatblackcapo]

Please use layman's terms.... I am learning but technical terms still confuse me sometimes.
I am working ( stock removal ) with Aldo's W2 and have seen recommended normalizing temps from 1650f to 2000f. Is there any negative effect on the steel by using the high temp?
That brings me to my next question, If I use .002 foil will it slow down the air cooling rate too much when doing grain refining if I leave the blade in the foil to cool?
Also, will this 1/8" stock through harden using Park 50? I am thinking of grinding post HT.

 

[shqxk]

There is no real negative to normalizing at 1600-2000F since the forging temp of this steel is already in that range. But since you do stock removing you properly don't need to go that high, 1650F would be fine since it will dissolve most carbide and do the job.

To refining the grain you also don't need foil wrap because W2 is shallow hardening steel and air cooling is enough.

And 1/8 will definitely thru hardened.

 

[Joel Mercier]

Well, if you use Aldo's W2, there's a post about it which mention you may need much higher temp than usual to put the carbon in the right place because the steel has been coarsely spheroidized. At least, that's how I understood it...

 

[Joel Mercier]

Forgot to answer your question.
When bladesmiths forge their steel, it goes repeatedly around 1900-2000. It's no big deal because the grain is going to be shrunk with thermal cycles later.

 

[Willie71]

Please use layman's terms.... I am learning but technical terms still confuse me sometimes.
I am working ( stock removal ) with Aldo's W2 and have seen recommended normalizing temps from 1650f to 2000f. Is there any negative effect on the steel by using the high temp?
That brings me to my next question, If I use .002 foil will it slow down the air cooling rate too much when doing grain refining if I leave the blade in the foil to cool?
Also, will this 1/8" stock through harden using Park 50? I am thinking of grinding post HT.

Using foil is fine. That won’t affect the cooling rate enough. The normalizing temp discrepancies are because different batches are different compositions and conditions. It’s hard to know which stock you have.

 

[flatblackcapo]

There is no real negative to normalizing at 1600-2000F since the forging temp of this steel is already in that range. But since you do stock removing you properly don't need to go that high, 1650F would be fine since it will dissolve most carbide and do the job.

To refining the grain you also don't need foil wrap because W2 is shallow hardening steel and air cooling is enough.

And 1/8 will definitely thru hardened.

Well, if you use Aldo's W2, there's a post about it which mention you may need much higher temp than usual to put the carbon in the right place because the steel has been coarsely spheroidized. At least, that's how I understood it...

Forgot to answer your question.
When bladesmiths forge their steel, it goes repeatedly around 1900-2000. It's no big deal because the grain is going to be shrunk with thermal cycles later.

Thanks to both of you.

Wouldn't it be better to use some sort of shielding to prevent decarb and scale? Foil is what I have so I would like to use that but I was concerned it might slow the cooling too much.

 

[flatblackcapo]

Using foil is fine. That won’t affect the cooling rate enough. The normalizing temp discrepancies are because different batches are different compositions and conditions. It’s hard to know which stock you have.

Thank you. Warren.
So if I had the batch that only needed 1650 to normalize, would there be any negative to normalizing at 2000?

 

[Willie71]

Thank you. Warren.
So if I had the batch that only needed 1650 to normalize, would there be any negative to normalizing at 2000?

You might have to do three grain refinements instead of two, but i’m Not sure about that. It depends on how much grain growth you get. We would need to see micrographs after each cycle to see what the grain looks like.

 

[Willie71]

Thank you. Warren.
So if I had the batch that only needed 1650 to normalize, would there be any negative to normalizing at 2000?

You could normalize at 1650, then heat treat and see if it hardens to Rc67 or more. If it doesn’t harden, go to 1900, and quench. It should harden, but be very brittle. Some batches harden at 1460f, others harden at 1500f. Lots of experimenting to see what you have.

 

[JTknives]

That sucks. Sucks that you have to play the mystery steel game on steel you bought.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

No mystery JT,
Normalize for a highly spheroidal steel.
165o for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1550 for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1450 for 5 minutes, quench in Parks #50;
Harden at 1460-1475 for 5 minutes and quench in Parks #50. Should come out of quench at Rc66-67.
Temper twice at 400-450F

 

[JTknives]

No mystery JT,
Normalize for a highly spheroidal steel.
165o for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1550 for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1450 for 5 minutes, quench in Parks #50;
Harden at 1460-1475 for 5 minutes and quench in Parks #50. Should come out of quench at Rc66-67.
Temper twice at 400-450F

Kinda a mystery when some people can’t get it to harden with that standard process and have to normalize at around 1900°+. Like the OP said he does not know if what he has needs high or low normalizing. Not a mystery like you don’t know what the steel is but a mystery in what normalizing temp it needs. This is kinda why as a heat treater I’m not to happy with some of their steel and choices on processing.

 

[Willie71]

No mystery JT,
Normalize for a highly spheroidal steel.
165o for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1550 for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1450 for 5 minutes, quench in Parks #50;
Harden at 1460-1475 for 5 minutes and quench in Parks #50. Should come out of quench at Rc66-67.
Temper twice at 400-450F

That USUALLY works, but there is a batch of steel that needs 1900f to break up the carbides. Secondly, some batches have optimum austenitizing temp of 1460f, others are 1500f. Even if the original source is now more consistent, when you buy from a vendor that resells that steel, which batch are they selling?

This sucks, as I just cut up my last bar of the first good batch they had after the recall. I’m apprehensive to buy more, as I don’t know which batch I would be getting.

 

[JTknives]

That USUALLY works, but there is a batch of steel that needs 1900f to break up the carbides.

That’s all I meant. That kind sucks for the customers. Just think if that was sent to the other heat treating place that does not hardness test. My question is how did that batch pass quality control? Was anything said to the people that bought it letting them know that thy had to heat treat with that high normalizing process?

 

[Willie71]

That’s all I meant. That kind sucks for the customers. Just think if that was sent to the other heat treating place that does not hardness test. My question is how did that batch pass quality control? Was anything said to the people that bought it letting them know that thy had to heat treat with that high normalizing process?

If I buy more, I might buy it specifically for Damascus, as the forge welding will break everything up.

 

[JTknives]

If I buy more, I might buy it specifically for Damascus, as the forge welding will break everything up.

Yeah that’s understandable. But what size is or was it sold in? Was it marketed to stock removal guys? Sorry I kinda derailed the topic.

 

[Willie71]

Yeah that’s understandable. But what size is or was it sold in? Was it marketed to stock removal guys? Sorry I kinda derailed the topic.

It was all sizes rolled from that batch as far as I recall. No idea how they marketed it. They stopped selling to Canada a few years back, so I have been using other sources for my steel. I bought quite a bit when the first good batch came out, so I haven’t had the drama of non hardening in my shop. I stuck to the same protocol as it was all that first good batch.

As an alternative, I quite like the 26c3.

 

[flatblackcapo]

You might have to do three grain refinements instead of two, but i’m Not sure about that. It depends on how much grain growth you get. We would need to see micrographs after each cycle to see what the grain looks like.

You could normalize at 1650, then heat treat and see if it hardens to Rc67 or more. If it doesn’t harden, go to 1900, and quench. It should harden, but be very brittle. Some batches harden at 1460f, others harden at 1500f. Lots of experimenting to see what you have.

That sucks. Sucks that you have to play the mystery steel game on steel you bought.

No mystery JT,
Normalize for a highly spheroidal steel.
165o for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1550 for 5 minutes, cool to black;
1450 for 5 minutes, quench in Parks #50;
Harden at 1460-1475 for 5 minutes and quench in Parks #50. Should come out of quench at Rc66-67.
Temper twice at 400-450F

Kinda a mystery when some people can’t get it to harden with that standard process and have to normalize at around 1900°+. Like the OP said he does not know if what he has needs high or low normalizing. Not a mystery like you don’t know what the steel is but a mystery in what normalizing temp it needs. This is kinda why as a heat treater I’m not to happy with some of their steel and choices on processing.

That USUALLY works, but there is a batch of steel that needs 1900f to break up the carbides. Secondly, some batches have optimum austenitizing temp of 1460f, others are 1500f. Even if the original source is now more consistent, when you buy from a vendor that resells that steel, which batch are they selling?

This sucks, as I just cut up my last bar of the first good batch they had after the recall. I’m apprehensive to buy more, as I don’t know which batch I would be getting.

That’s all I meant. That kind sucks for the customers. Just think if that was sent to the other heat treating place that does not hardness test. My question is how did that batch pass quality control? Was anything said to the people that bought it letting them know that thy had to heat treat with that high normalizing process?

It was all sizes rolled from that batch as far as I recall. No idea how they marketed it. They stopped selling to Canada a few years back, so I have been using other sources for my steel. I bought quite a bit when the first good batch came out, so I haven’t had the drama of non hardening in my shop. I stuck to the same protocol as it was all that first good batch.

As an alternative, I quite like the 26c3.

Thanks Warren, JT ,Stacy

I don't have a hardness tester yet, that is why I asked about the high heat. I figured if it didn't hurt anything and all it cost me was a few more grain refinement cycles, that would be the safest route. I plan on switching to the 26c3 in the future but I wanted to use what I had. Thanks again for the help.

I would like to do some coupons to dial in my heat treat. If any of you folks with a hardness tester and an eye for grain refinement would be willing to take a look for me please let me know.

 

[Joel Mercier]

I do have a hardness tester but I am in Canada so shipping costs may not make it worthwhile. Your call...

 

[flatblackcapo]

I do have a hardness tester but I am in Canada so shipping costs may not make it worthwhile. Your call...

Thank you , Joel . Being that you are in Canada I will give it a little time and see if I can find someone on this side of the boarder. I thank you for your offer.