Any reviews on the wicked edge Gen III sharpener?

[Fred.Rowe]

First of all, I don't think it is very chic trying to talk down a competitors product not only in this thread but also in another thread about the KME (where I posted this same reply).

Secondly.... your statement that most kitchen knives cary angles of 20 to 30 degrees inclusive is nonsense.

From Knife Edges 101: Kitchen knives:

Knives manufactured in the Western/German tradition (e.g. Henckels and Wusthof and crew) are typically ground with a 20 to 22 degree edge angle. Which means that the actual knife (the included angle) is cutting with a 40–44 degree wedge. Doesn’t seem that sharp, does it? It isn’t. It’s designed to be just sharp enough, yet take a ton of abuse. It can nick a bone and not chip, or saw it’s way through frozen pork tenderloin (something it should never be used to cut through in the first place) and still not crack or break. It’s a warhorse.

Japanese knives (and Japanese hybrids) are factory ground with edges from 10 to 15 degrees. Which adds up to included angles of 20 to 30 degrees—the smallest of these creating a wedge half the size of the typical Western knife. Whoa. No wonder Japanese knives are all the rage—they make everything you slice feel like butter. But beware, there’s no free lunch. Try abusing a Japanese knife and you will pay for it with chips and cracks galore!

Third: The angles as stated on the KME and Wicked Edge website are dependent on how far the knife extents from the clamp and for most kitchen knives this means that they can be sharpened at much lower angles.

Not to be redundant and I will not be. Seven hundred dollars for any knife sharpener to me, is an outrageous amount of money. Again, as a knife maker that has made over a thousand knives with a broad range of geometries with varied edge angles lets just say I personally, would hesitate to purchase any system that did not have a broad enough range to sharpen those knives. Twenty eight degrees inclusive with a max thickness of 3/16" would not cover the knives I make and many of the custom creations on the market.
Today's American market in kitchen knives, at least those made by custom makers are moving in the direction of thin stock with very acute edge angles. This is not just me this is whats happening in the hand made industry.
Now to some paying this kind of money for a sharpening system might not affect what they have for lunch. I'm retired and on a fixed income and I don't have this much in my
2x72 VS wet belt machine.

I don't make any comparison with what I manufacture and these sharpening systems seen on this forum. The small precision tool I make, does have a sharpening angle range that adjust from 16 degrees inclusive [straight razors] and 40 degrees [axes and splitting mauls. But I wont blow my own horn

PS I've endured all types of abuse on forums from people who doubt the validity of a quality "V" knife sharpener, I take it as just part of doing business. If you don't have thick skin its not easy.

My best regards, Fred

 

[Twindog]

My God, for 700 dollars I would expect the thing to offer sharpening angles under 28 inclusive. What do you do if you wish to sharpen your kitchen knives, which are all @ 24 or less or you want to sharpen your thick camp knife 1/4 inch. I guess you break out the ever popular coffee cup.

We need a sticky where people can post, anonymously of course, how much they've spent to sharpen their knives.

Regards, Fred

It is a lot of money, that's for sure. But you get the best sharpening system on the market, including 12 diamond stones. I've spent at least that much on my Wicked Edge system, probably more. And I still consider it the best knife money I've spent. I'm looking forward to the new clamping system. Mine is in the mail somewhere, thanks to the good people at Oldawan. One of the things I like is that the system continues to evolve, with lots of new stones and edge sharpening tools being added continually, including various stropping options that make refinement of the edge super easy, super precise and very, very sharp.

Stropping is a difficult skill to learn freehand. It's easy with the WE, because the angle is pre-set and you just need to use very light pressure.

Any sharpening system can get an edge sharp, but none do it as well and as easily as the WE system. Someone with a basic understanding of sharpening theory can quickly be creating perfect edges like a pro.

 

[fvdk]

Not to be redundant and I will not be. Seven hundred dollars for any knife sharpener to me, is an outrageous amount of money.

It sure is a lot of money but I think it is worth every penny and apparently I am not alone in this as they won numerous awards including the ‘Accessory of the Year’ for two years in a row at BLADE Show and the Kitchen Innovations® 2014 Award for the Professional Series Knife Sharpener.

PS I've endured all types of abuse on forums from people who doubt the validity of a quality "V" knife sharpener, I take it as just part of doing business. If you don't have thick skin its not easy.

My best regards, Fred

The only thing that triggered my response it that you (mis)used threads about sharpeners from your competitors to promote your own product.
Apparently you think you know better than the people of Wicked Edge, KME, Chef's Choice and just about any other sharpener manufacturer as well as most knife manufacturers like Wusthof, Zwilling J.A. Henckels, Victorinoc etc. but that is of course your prerogative.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

It sure is a lot of money but I think it is worth every penny and apparently I am not alone in this as they won numerous awards including the ‘Accessory of the Year’ for two years in a row at BLADE Show and the Kitchen Innovations® 2014 Award for the Professional Series Knife Sharpener.



The only thing that triggered my response it that you (mis)used threads about sharpeners from your competitors to promote your own product.
Apparently you think you know better than the people of Wicked Edge, KME, Chef's Choice and just about any other sharpener manufacturer as well as most knife manufacturers like Wusthof, Zwilling J.A. Henckels, Victorinoc etc. but that is of course your prerogative.

I am only repeating what is contained in their own literature. By the way, its not a matter of "knowing" better. I'm a skilled knife maker with years of experience and I work in a shop that contains most any tool or machine imaginable.
what I stated, which you did not address, is why I posted originally. If a sharpening tool, no matter what it cost, does not make possible the sharpening of the full spectrum of contemporary knives, then I feel the question to be ask is why is that. The sharpener that I make was designed and built as a reflection of my knife making career, which I believe is sound. The angles I put forth, as to, modern custom kitchen knives as well as many other quality made knives, is absolutely relevant.

If you think comparing features of different sharpeners is a misuse of post then we must live in different worlds. The USA is built around capitalism. We compete with each other in just about every thing we do. You may or may not agree with this type of system, but it is ours and I am part of that system.

I am an exception in that I'm a seasoned knife maker with years of experience, an inventor with two patented products that I produce, their function being to control exact angles whether grinding blades or sharpening. The reason I choose to do this is I like to compete, sixteen years in the martial arts, I've run my own business for almost 20 years and I love the game. This is not arrogance, its what I've done with my life.
I know both of these sharpeners function quite well, some even say exceptionally. They do not cover a wide enough range of sharpening angles to deal with the knives that are made by todays knife makers. That is a simple fact. I discuss edge angles with other makers daily, many of them using my grinding system, so in this, my knowledge is fairly extensive.

You may feel a need to castigate people you do not agree with, which is your choice. Not that it makes a great deal of difference, but I have paid my dues on this website and have been a member since 2004. To say that I misused a thread to promote my own product is silly at best. I never mentioned the product I make until you brought it up.

As a maker and sharpener I know the most valuable thing a person can possess is knowledge of what they are trying to accomplish. No specific tool or set up or instructions from on line guru's, but actual knowledge of what it takes to accomplish a task. It is true in knife making, knife sharpening and most any other endeavor.

I hope this is an open book, Fred

 

[fvdk]

I am only repeating what is contained in their own literature.

You did but selectively. Both the KME and the Wicked Edge can sharpen at much lower angles either because most kitchen knives protrude farther from the knife clamp or by means of separately available accessories like the low angle adapter for the Wicked Edge.

If a sharpening tool, no matter what it cost, does not make possible the sharpening of the full spectrum of contemporary knives, then I feel the question to be ask is why is that.

Probably because the manufacturers of those systems did not think that it would be relevant for their system / intended use of the system.
Both the Wicked Edge and the KME can do things that your product can not do. Does that make your system faulty or less usable? I do not think so. It is a completely different kind of tool so comparing one to the other is in my opinion useless.

The sharpener that I make was designed and built as a reflection of my knife making career, which I believe is sound. The angles I put forth, as to, modern custom kitchen knives as well as many other quality made knives, is absolutely relevant.

And I don't think there is nothing wrong with that but it is not relevant to completely different sharpening systems than the one you make.

The USA is built around capitalism. We compete with each other in just about every thing we do. You may or may not agree with this type of system, but it is ours and I am part of that system.

I do agree with that system but I am arguing with you about sharpeners and not about capitalism or the USA in general.

I am an exception in that I'm a seasoned knife maker with years of experience, an inventor with two patented products that I produce, their function being to control exact angles whether grinding blades or sharpening. The reason I choose to do this is I like to compete, sixteen years in the martial arts, I've run my own business for almost 20 years and I love the game. This is not arrogance, its what I've done with my life.

I don't know you and I have no experience with your products and I have nothing against you. I actually think that the ERU might be a very good product for the intended use. I would probably have the same discussion with the manufacturers of the Wicked Edge or KME if they would jump on a tread about the ERU and than say anything bad about it.

I know both of these sharpeners function quite well, some even say exceptionally. They do not cover a wide enough range of sharpening angles to deal with the knives that are made by todays knife makers. That is a simple fact.

I would say that is not a fact but a personal opinion. It might be true for certain (custom) knives but they certainly cover most of the commercially made kitchen knives like the Wusthof, Zwilling Henckels, Victorinox etc. which are mostly sharpened at angles of 14 - 20 degrees per side. Besides that, neither Wicked Edge or KME claim that their system is perfect for 'any' available knife.

I never mentioned the product I make until you brought it up.

Since it is part of your signature, it is a bit hard to ignore.

As is often the case when two people disagree, this discussion is getting far beyond the original topic which was not my intention. I hope I have kept my arguments factual and not personal as I just disagree with you but I have nothing against you personal so as far as I am concerned, we just agree to disagree.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

You have been most pleasant in discussing this. Its so easy to make assumptions when discussing topics on line, that is true here.

My invention is not comparable to either of these products as its intended use is as a maintenance tool and edge angle indicator.

Posting yesterday was a mistake on my part. I deal with a lot of pain, which was the case yesterday. Not an excuse but an oversight, I should have waited until my head cleared.

I've spent several decades learning about this subject, I even took 8 years of edged weapons training in the MA wanting to understand what sharp is, what the possibilities are when deciding what angles apply to individual knives. In my thinking, this is the secret to success, understanding what your looking at with knife in hand. I don't think this is some learned by reading, but with experience. If one has this knowledge its almost imaterial what tool is being used to sharpen.

I hope this slightly rough beginning will not curtail further discussion, Fred

 

[fvdk]

You have been most pleasant in discussing this.

Thank you, so have you.

My invention is not comparable to either of these products as its intended use is as a maintenance tool and edge angle indicator.

And in that category I think it is a good product.

Posting yesterday was a mistake on my part. I deal with a lot of pain, which was the case yesterday. Not an excuse but an oversight, I should have waited until my head cleared.

I am sorry to hear that, I wish you well and hope you will get better soon.

I hope this slightly rough beginning will not curtail further discussion, Fred

I might not agree with you on certain points but I certainly respect you as a person.

Frans

 

[Twindog]

Your comments were good, Fred, and always appreciated. I've learned a lot from you.

I tend to defend the Wicked Edge because it is the system that works best for me, and I've tried most of them. You make a good point about experience being a great teacher. That is true. One of the things I like most about the Wicked Edge is that if you have a good understanding of the sharpening process -- properly raising, recognizing and removing a burr, which is the book-learning part -- the WE allows you to sharpen a knife as if you had many years of high-quality experience. You can't do that freehand. Freehand demands that you put in your time before it rewards you.

The cost is high, but I think you have to look at what you get: 12 high-quality diamond stones mounted on a system meant to hold an exact angle, easily adjusted in half-degree increments. That is not cheap.

It should also be pointed out that the WE can take edge angles down to 10 dps with an optional $75 attachment.

I never go that low, even on my kitchen knives. The kitchen knives that I like the best have such acute geometry that they are easy to sharpen freehand on a DMT diamond stone (extra fine).

Everyone has their own preferences and tastes and needs, so we're not going to agree on everything; but the WE is an awesome system, and you can put together a basic WE system for much less than $700. And I'd guess that if the new generation clamps are as big an improvement as I suspect, a lot of older WE systems will be for sale at low prices in the coming months. Mine will be.

 

[Twindog]

I just installed the new Gen III jaws. The set up is excellent -- much easier to use than the old set up -- but the clamp does not hold the blade securely, especially if the blade is thin or has a distal taper.

Not sure how to deal with this.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I just installed the new Gen III jaws. The set up is excellent -- much easier to use than the old set up -- but the clamp does not hold the blade securely, especially if the blade is thin or has a distal taper.

Not sure how to deal with this.

Is it possible to install some type of gripping material to the jaws; something that would mold to the shape of the distal taper?

 

[Twindog]

The clamp doesn't hold the knife very securely, especially thin blades and blades with a distal taper.

I tried putting electrical tape on the blade, as Fred just suggested, and I tried taping just the side of the clamp holding the thinnest part of the blade. Neither approach worked.

Here's a kitchen knife that is both thin and has a full, but mild distal taper. With -- by my guess -- five pounds of pressure, the knife is easily tilted out of position. I suppose that you could be super careful and not knock the knife out of position, but if I'm reprofiling an edge, I might spend a couple hours on the process. Maybe more. I worry that the steady grinding will gradually move the blade out of position.

I love the WE system, and the worst part of the old system was the clunky clamping system. The single-arm clamp is a great idea. It makes the sharpener a lot easier to use. But it's not secure. This is not right. And the clamp mars the blade if it moves. I don't know how WE deals with this.

 

[Acadian]

You are right... Its a convenience thing 😊 I would wait to order though... They are having qc issues right now with them

if you don't mind me asking - what kind of QC issues were they having?

 

[Fred.Rowe]

The clamp doesn't hold the knife very securely, especially thin blades and blades with a distal taper.

I tried putting electrical tape on the blade, as Fred just suggested, and I tried taping just the side of the clamp holding the thinnest part of the blade. Neither approach worked.

Here's a kitchen knife that is both thin and has a full, but mild distal taper. With -- by my guess -- five pounds of pressure, the knife is easily tilted out of position. I suppose that you could be super careful and not knock the knife out of position, but if I'm reprofiling an edge, I might spend a couple hours on the process. Maybe more. I worry that the steady grinding will gradually move the blade out of position.

I love the WE system, and the worst part of the old system was the clunky clamping system. The single-arm clamp is a great idea. It makes the sharpener a lot easier to use. But it's not secure. This is not right. And the clamp mars the blade if it moves. I don't know how WE deals with this.

I have a pattern makers vise in my shop where the clamping head swivels so a blade with distal taper can be clamped to straighten and cool. This would be a good solution to this problem. On the WE the clamping jaws, instead of being made ridged they could be made to swivel, I think this would solve this issue.

Good luck with resolving this Twndog.

 

[Twindog]

I have a pattern makers vise in my shop where the clamping head swivels so a blade with distal taper can be clamped to straighten and cool. This would be a good solution to this problem. On the WE the clamping jaws, instead of being made ridged they could be made to swivel, I think this would solve this issue.

Good luck with resolving this Twndog.

That sounds like a good idea, Fred. I'm going to try some other approaches, such as painter's tape and wedging a small stick under the forward part of the clamped spine to block it from moving.

On the plus side, the new clamp works better with full flat grind blades. With the old clamp, I have to be careful that the blade is pointed straight up. The new clamp seems to get it right every time.

I noticed on the WE forum, that some people were complaining about the sudden, loud snap of the cam when the blade is released. On mine, the snap is so mild that I doubt anyone would complain, even if they noticed. So I could have a unit with a weak spring. Apparently, the company hasn't received any/many complaints, although few units have yet found their way out into the wild.

 

[bgentry]

The clamp doesn't hold the knife very securely, especially thin blades and blades with a distal taper.

I tried putting electrical tape on the blade, as Fred just suggested, and I tried taping just the side of the clamp holding the thinnest part of the blade. Neither approach worked.

I don't think you've used enough material to take up the extra space between the thinner part of the blade and the jaw. If it were me, I would try some shelf liner. The kind that's medium thick (about 1/8 - 3/16") and is made in a rounded mesh shape. I'd wrap some shelf liner around the thin part of the blade, doubling it up if necessary. I don't know if that will work for you, but I think it's worth a shot.

Brian.

 

[Twindog]

I don't think you've used enough material to take up the extra space between the thinner part of the blade and the jaw. If it were me, I would try some shelf liner. The kind that's medium thick (about 1/8 - 3/16") and is made in a rounded mesh shape. I'd wrap some shelf liner around the thin part of the blade, doubling it up if necessary. I don't know if that will work for you, but I think it's worth a shot.

Brian.

Thanks. I've tried several things. The problem with soft and thick material is that the blade moves even more. I tried several layers of painter's tape, and that made it worse.

I talked with Wicked Edge. They said some of the early units came with weaker springs than optimal. The ones with stiff springs appear to work as intended. They're going to send out a new unit when they get a new shipment. I think the unit is good, but mine was a little out of spec because of a weak spring. What it really needs is a kind of wedge-shaped insert that protects the blade and makes up for the distal taper of the blade. Or, as Fred suggested, a system that allows the clamp to rotate so both sides are evenly flush with the blade, regardless of distal taper.

The engineering is complicated by having to clamp knives of considerably different spine thicknesses with just one cam. How do you design a cam that can clamp a 3/16th spine as well as a 0.1 inch spine? Then you add in varying distal tapers, from none to a lot, and it quickly gets challenging.

But the basic idea is pretty good.

 

[bgentry]

Thanks. I've tried several things. The problem with soft and thick material is that the blade moves even more. I tried several layers of painter's tape, and that made it worse.

Shelf liner is probably 15 to 20 times the thickness of painters tape. Painters tape is slick. Shelf liner is VERY tacky. Shelf liner compresses. Tape doesn't compress hardly at all. If you don't want to try it, cool; but they have very different properties.

Brian.

 

[REK Knives]

if you don't mind me asking - what kind of QC issues were they having?

Clamping force and cam pin issues from what I gathered... but I may be wrong. As has been pointed out, the reason I have not upgraded yet is that I cannot be limited to the 3/16" wide blades and plus I want them to get some type of coating that Clay was looking into for more gripping power.

It should be noted that the prototype model I tested was very rigid and had excellent clamping power.

 

[ToddM]

It will be interesting to see the feedback as more of these systems get out on the market.

Right now it's early, and it seems we're seeing WE still make some adjustments based on that feedback, but right now for me the big question is: Should a $700 clamp system knife sharpener be unable to securely hold a blade in the first place and how many knives will it struggle with? I realize there will always be some blade shapes a vice system will struggle with, and a cam clamp is going to have thickness limitations. However, if I'm going to spend that much I'm not going to accept messing around with tape, liner, foam, wedges, etc. to try and get the clamp to hold securely. That's going to negate any of the time I save with the faster clamp/angle system and just induce frustration. It also complicates repeating the exact setup the next time you sharpen the same knife. To me it seems like there are two types of customers for high dollar sharpeners, those trying to make $ doing volume, and perfectionists. I have no idea how those fall out as far as # of sales but I fall into the later group, and I would gladly sacrifice some time to ensure the knife is clamped securely, accurately with respect to the angle on each stone, and easily repeatable to get precision results from sharpening to sharpening.

I ran into that with the Apex, even with the magnets mod I ended up making thick kydex wedges to brace the blade against for those that had no flats on the spine or extreme distal tapers. Then it was making sure to use the same wedge the same way the next time I sharpened the knife, then keeping a log to keep track of them, etc. I don't want to deal with stuff like that the next time I drop a lot of $ on a sharpener.

It seems like the clamp is the weak link in all of the clamp style sharpeners, the first company that comes up with a truly revolutionary clamp that can handle a wider variety of blade shapes/thicknesses and holds securely will have a grail.

However, if waves of people start upgrading I may need to snag an older WE system at a great price.

 

[fvdk]

It seems like the clamp is the weak link in all of the clamp style sharpeners, the first company that comes up with a truly revolutionary clamp that can handle a wider variety of blade shapes/thicknesses and holds securely will have a grail.

You are right. I am a perfectionist as well and that is the reason why I have just about any sharpener available, the WE, Edge Pro (clone), KME, Thormek T7, Worksharp KO and just about any other available system. Ridiculous of course but I don't mind, I enjoy playing with them and at least I know from my own experience how each one performs and for each type of knife I can pick the one that is best suitable.

Nevertheless, It would be nice to have a near perfect system.