Any thoughts on the Sykes Fairbairn?

TIZWIN said:
Mr. Cox--I've experimented with the grip you describe. I've used a 1976 vintage Sheffield/NATO marked Pattern 3 F/S dagger, and a Camillus reproduction of the M3 "Trench" knife. Your description makes sense to me. What is the source for your knowledge of this grip?

I first started thinking about this grip while researching the history of the Bowie knife.

Settle down for a long story. :)

Jim Bowie had at least two Bowie knives.

The first knife corresponds to the knife he used at the Vidalia Sandbar Fight.

Jim Bowie's brother Rezin Bowie made this knife, or had it made on his plantation by his own blacksmith, and gave it to Jim Bowie as a gift.

What do we know about this knife?
The Rezin Bowie knife?

We have reason to believe Rezin Bowie intended for the user to hold it major edge up.

How do we know this, or why would we suspect it?

Rezin Bowie fought a bull with his own version of this knife, and in the process of this fight, Rezin's hand slid up the grip onto the blade and it almost severed his thumb.

How else would a blade's edge almost sever someone's thumb, unless one held the knife major edge up?

So, imagine a large, heavy Chef's knife with the top edge sharpened from the tip back to the grip; and, imagine the bottom edge thick like the typical spine of a knife, and with only the last half or third of the knife's bottom edge sharpened.
Further, please realize this knife has no separate hilt and relies instead on a "drop guard" to keep the user's hand from sliding up on it, as does a Chef's knife.
Think of an upside down Chef's knife, with the edge up and the drop guard down.

James Bowie had the mate to his brother Rezin's knife with him, the same knife he used at the Vidalia Sand Bar Fight, when he visited James Black, the Arkansas bladesmith.
James Black enjoyed some fame or notoriety for his steel and a "secret" heat treatment.
The steel, we think, had a high nickel content from a percentage of meteorite added to the steel.
In any event, Jim Bowie drew a design for James Black for a new fighting knife, and left the drawing with Black, promising to return in several weeks for the new fighting knife.

James Black didn't like James Bowie's design, and so he designed another knife.
He made both knives, James Bowie's design and his own James Black design.
When James Bowie returned to pay for the knife, James Black offered him either knife for the same price.
James Bowie chose James Black's design, and when James Bowie died at the Alamo he had James Black's Bowie Knife in his possession as THE Bowie Knife of fame.

Some historians think the Rezin Bowie knife of the Vidalia Sandbar Fight resembled the Chef's knife I have already described; and, they think the second knife might have looked very much like Bo Randall's Model 1 "All Purpose Fighting Knife."

Please check out this early Randall Model 1:

http://www.collectibleskingdom.com/springf.jpg

Notice it has a straight handle, with the center line of the handle aligned with the point of the knife.
Notice also the two rounded cutouts on the top and bottom of the ricasso.
Because of the knive's symmetry around the handle-point center line, a person could hold this knife either edge up or edge down, and it would balance the same.
However, not all modern Model 1's have a straight handle, but rather a dropping handle, so that the butt of the grip falls below the center line of the blade.

Check out this A. G. Russell offering:

http://www.agrussell.com/knives/tactical/randall_model_1_with_black_micarta_handle.html

That one looks straight.
Compare it to the one in Randall's present catalogue:

http://www.randallknives.com/catalog.php?action=modeldetail&id=25

I think "Bo" Randall designed this knife so the user could hold it edge up or edge down, with the index finger in front of the hilt, wrapped around the indentation in the Ricasso (either indentation, the one on the "top" or the "bottom").
Bo Randall's son, Gary, who now runs Randall Knives, denies this.

Still, I can't imagine why this knife would have these indentations in the ricasso except as place for the index finger in a desperation, don't want to lose the knife, fight.

Let me digress one more little bit.

Some years ago I had Buck 110 which I had thinned and sharpened to "silly sharp."
A friend and acquaintance of the time, a person I have reason to believe might have used a knife in a fight, criticized me for the fragility of my ultra-sharp knife: he said, "A knife should have an edge that can hit a belt buckle and stay sharp."

Hm.

So, let's consider a Bowie Knife, or a Randall Model 1, held edge up, with the index finger ahead of the hilt and wrapped around the ricasso, so that the hilt acts as a subhilt.
Additionally, imagine a knife 13.5" in total length, with a grip a hair over 5" in length (time and space won't let me explain why this length, but I think I have the right length).
Randall will make a Model 1 this large, but not larger, saying any extra length beyond an 8.5" blade slows down the blade in a fight.

A Bowie or Randall used as I have describe, with the edge up and the spine down, could parry another knife edge without concern for damaging one's own edge.
One could batter his opponent's blade aside with the spine held down.
Further, the sharpened clip would still serve in a long-reach slash, just as well, if not better, than the tip of a knife held the conventional way, major edge down.
Finally, one can put a knife held this way between the legs of his opponent and draw-cut upwards, severing the femoral artery and a few other things.
So, in this manner, one has a damage-resistant battering edge held down, with a sharpened swedge for slashing, and a razor-sharp edge held up, for an upward draw cut under the armpit, between the legs, behind the neck, behind the knee, etc.

NOW we get to the FSFK.

Fairbairn designed the Pattern 1, the first FSFK, with an unsharpened "tablet," as they called it, or an sharpened ricasso, as we would term it today.

After a wildly successful but limited run of Pattern 1 knives, the grinding men on the Wilkinson production floor complained to Wilkinson management about the unsharpened tablet, saying the tablet revealed and even exaggerated any lack of abosolute symmetry in the four grinds on the blade.

Look at the bottom picture of the very high-quality New Zealand knife on the following page:

http://www.nzknives.co.nz/pattern1.htm

A highly-skilled knife maker ground this blade, and had more time to do it than would a WWII factory worker.

Notice how the tablet exaggerates the tiniest amount of dyssymetry.

Wilkinson gave it factory grinding men permission to grind the edge all the way to the hilt, without consulting with Fairbairn.
Wilkinson named this knife the Pattern 2, which made the first knife the Pattern 1.

Years later, while instructing at CAMP X with the OSS, Fairbairn commissioned his second design, the X DAGGER.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~lhodgson/campx.htm

http://www.nzknives.co.nz/xdagger.htm

Notice that the X Dagger has an unsharpened ricasso, just like the Pattern 1 FSFK.

This means that the only two knives which Fairbairn designed both had an unsharpened ricasso.

Fairbairn already had access to as many Pattern 2 and Pattern 3 knives as he could have possible wanted.
Nonetheless, he designed a new knife which, like the Pattern 1, had an unsharpened ricasso.
In fact, the unsharpened ricasso represents the only real difference between the X Dagger and either Pattern 2 or the Pattern 3.
This tells me that the unsharpened ricasso had significant importance to Fairbairn.
Why and how?

Well, I looked at the Pattern 1 and the X Dagger, and looked at them and looked at them and looked at them...
And suddenly the Randall/Bowie knife popped into my head.
What if Fairbairn really intended the hilt to perform as a subhilt?
If so, it would have needed an unsharpened portion of the blade in front of the hilt for the index finger.

Follow my thinking?

Otherwise, why did he even design the X Dagger?
And why design it in a fashion that made it more difficult to manufacture, with an unsharpened ricasso?
In the end, only the unsharpened ricassos of the Pattern 1 and X Dagger distinguish them in any meaningful manner from the Pattern 2 and Pattern 3.

I could have it wrong, but the handle of the FSFK has always seemed too small for the adult male hand, unless one choked up on the grip and used the hilt as a subhilt.

Well, think about it.

I wrote this at the request of TIZWIN, and I thank him for asking me.

Later. :)
 
Con muchas gracias, Mr. Cox, I add that in my brief experimentation with my own 1976 vintage F/S knife, your theory seems correct. How thrilling to ponder the possiblity of a stylistic linkage between such classic blade designs. I don't mean to say that Yeaton, Sykes, Fairbairn, et. al, were directly influenced by the American Bowie, but more that it came out of the long legacy of Anglo/Saxon Scotch/Irish bladework--a sort of collective unconscious.

I am in the midst of modifying my F/S, and I will humbly submit my results soon. I have also found a bladesmith that makes a very good copy of the Australian Commando Knife, itself a copy of the F/S, and he is willing to make a few customizations to it. The future looks bright for this particular F/S fan! I truly wish I could afford one of those lovely F/S variants made by the Kiwi bloke. Maybe someday. More pertinently, I wish I lived in a time or place where the law allows the open (or concealed) carry of such a fine implement.
 
Hi Everyone,
I'm only a new member so please forgive me if I am unfamiliar with the whats and wherefores of the Forum. I had a quick look through your messages early this morning and from what I gather there is a little confusion relating to the current FS knives and their status in modern times. Hopefully, I may be able to shed a little light on some of your queries.

First of all though, just to introduce myself, I am a advanced Military knife collector with some 45 years experience, mostly with Third Reich Daggers and Fairbairn Sykes Fighting knives. I am also into the history side of things as a secondary interest. Maybe I have a few stories regarding the illustrious Capts. Fairbairn & Sykes that some of you may be interested in. Both my Father and one of my Uncles trained with the gents for awhile and passed on some info which may be helpful.

Anyway, I have to rush now. Dinner is calling and it is getting late here in Oz So I will be back as soon as time permits.
 
Unfortunately they were very expensive and always seemed the have the tips broken off!
My father served in India in WW2.
He had a locally made version with a wooden handle, which he gave me.

The tip was broken off.
He explained, when he was demobbed, in order to take these type of knives home, the armoury would break off the tip.
 
Save your money, all the current production knives are unmitigated rubbish!!!
Go to www.nzknives.co.nz/ he make the best there is , well worth the money and wait. He will even customise somewhat. BTW I have no connection to this maker except as a consumer.
Phil

actually there are a couple makers that are high grade current issued FS fighters and they are WAY more reasonable in cost than that NZ co. There is a German stainless blade model used by paki special troops that is high quality and you can find one from 30 -75 bucks right now, untill they dry up as they probable fell off of a truck.LOL!
 
I'm from Sheffield (England) originally myself and have had some past involvement in the cutlery trade there. I'd like to be able to say that the F-S knives being produced there are of high quality, but they're not, they're total junk (though the example by Long shown above looks good.) I can't believe the prices being charged for this rubbish. Names like Rodgers, Wostenholm, etc mean nothing these days, since all these names were bought by inferior cutlers when the original firms went bust years ago. The F-S blades are machine-ground in small workshops all over the city, as were many of the identical 'Wilkinson Sword' blades.

My grandfather carried an F-S in WW2, and I carried one myself. As has been said this knife was designed for only one thing, and it's very good at it. IMO the problems with the tip (and also with the edge chipping) are not to do with the design, but with the inferior steel and appalling heat-treatment that many Sheffield cutlers use. The tip and edges of the knife end up being brittle.

I had a couple of F-S daggers handmade in Sheffield some years back, with quality Sheffield steel, vaccuum hardened, and with a 2 stage cryogenic treatment. They were in a totally different category, I only wish I had them now.

If you want a genuine Sheffield-made F-S dagger my advice would be to contact Stuart Mitchell of Portland Works, Randall St, Sheffield. Otherwise, I'm sure there are a host of excellent US bladesmiths who could produce a copy of this classic pattern. Buying junk from the big Sheffield companies is just a waste of cash.
 
I would like to see someone making a real quality version of this famous dagger.

Meaning a blade made from CPM3V instead of some 440 series, ground with flawless lines to a zero edge, and no stress risers in the transformation area to the tang, which should be wider and stronger than the original.
Handle and guard could be made from brass, just as they do now.

The overall appearance would stay the same, but it would be a much better blade.

Oh, and charge a normal price for it, not 400 dollars or more.

(The statements above represents just my own opinion ofcourse,:D)
 
"...a blade made from... some 440 series, ground with flawless lines to a zero edge, and no stress risers in the transformation area to the tang, which should be wider and stronger than the original.
..."
- kwackster
Found this to be the ultimate cheapie to be just the ticket.
It has none of those things which made the F-S notoriously fragile.
A good design doesn't necessary have to be expensive or made from the best materials.
Unfortunately except for one thing (in regards to this suggestion) - in that it's probably just the kind of blade pattern which is probably outlawed by the Geneva convention and most lawful states, it being very much a triangular bladed steel spike (much like an oversized "french nail") which causes penetrating wounds that won't stop bleeding...
-http://www.eknifeworks.com/large/knife/DBHK6178.jpg
 
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