Any way to positively ID CPM154 vs 154CM?

pwheeler

pwheeler

Joined
Dec 30, 2013
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The short story here is I got shipped some mis-labeled steel. It was supposed to be S35VN, went to Brad and he reported that it is either 154CM or CPM154. This is a problem, if it was definitely one or the other, I could sell the knives as such and move on. When it's mystery steel, it's another issue. The supplier in question sells both, so can't rule one out that way. If I can't ID them for sure, that means my whole WIP inventory is getting downgraded to gift status, which is a serious bummer. I already have to re-start at least one custom order, luckily I left myself a good amount of time in the estimate.

Anyway, I think I know the answer to the question, which is that I'm SOL on the 154 knives, I suppose this is more of a vent than a question... :grumpy: If anyone had good news feel free to share it.
 
Sell them as 154CM knives. If it turns out their actually CPM-154, whoever buys them will be getting a bargain.
 
Yeah, it's more cost effective to just sell these as 154cm knives. If you must find out, polish the metal to at least 5000 grit; picral etch. With 400+ optical magnification, cpm154 carbides are more uniform in size around 3-5um in size, while 154cm will show a few large carbide with size > 15um.
 
That occurred to me. I'd probably still add the caveat that they might be CPM154, and sell them at a discount. If it was me I would still want to know what I was using, as it could inform opinions and future purchases for someone. So, watch the kitchen knife for sale page in the future if you're looking for bargains;).
 
bluntcut said:
Yeah, it's more cost effective to just sell these as 154cm knives. If you must find out, polish the metal to at least 5000 grit; picral etch. With 400+ optical magnification, cpm154 carbides are more uniform in size around 3-5um in size, while 154cm will show a few large carbide with size > 15um.
Click to expand...

I might actually do this, since it would only need to be a very small spot. I work in a research lab at CU hospital that has some pretty high-zoot microscopy. Thanks!
 
Has to be a metallurgical microscope !! Follow Bluntcut's proceedure.
 
if you take your time and sand to high grit then lightly buff the 154CM will show the alloy clumps whiel the PM will be much smoother (i can see that by eye side by side)
 
Could be a lot worse... The good news is, you've got Brad's input on it. His opinion on these matters is respected throughout the industry. Obviously I wasn't there, but I suspect something didn't seem quite right in quench or tempering, so he/his crew had your blades Rockwell tested, and possibly analyzed with their fancy X-ray thingamabob. :thumbup:

This is just one more reason I have a lot of trust in Peter's Heat Treat... they will let you know if there's a problem.

I'm with Butch on this; I've never needed a microscope to tell the difference between 154CM and CPM-154. Even a simple hand-sand up to 600 grit will show the difference to the naked eye, if you know what to look for (streaks and clumps that represent alloy banding). The finer you finish it, the more apparent it will be. Once you see it, you'll never forget it.

If still in doubt, you could just tell the cold, blatant truth... your vendor fouled up and you're not 100% sure if it's 154CM or CPM-154, but professional analysis shows it's definitely one or the other. Price it as 154CM. If the knives don't sell because of that, or you just don't want to put them out there not being sure... congrats, you and your friends/family get some "free" knives.

I know that's far from optimal for your bottom line this month... but... *shrug* That's all you can do, ethically. Money-wise, it will even out next year as you continue to exhibit high standards and sell more knives that you're truly confident about.

Definitely contact your vendor by phone (not e-mail), demand to speak to the boss/owner directly, and raise some hell!! Getting the right steel with which to work is heart-attack-serious for any knifemaker.

Honest mistakes do happen. This problem (mislabeled steel) has happened to me twice, over a period of several years. Both times it was caught by Brad and his crew during HT or hardness testing (I couldn't really tell just by grinding it).

One vendor completely ignored me, the other one made it right by sending me twice the amount of the correct steel, that I originally paid-for.

Guess which steel vendor I still support and recommend with confidence... and which one I will never buy from or recommend again... ;)
 
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That's the plan for now, just finish them up and sell them for a discount with the story of what happened. Luckily 5 of the blades are gifts destined for all my aunts and uncles anyway. One will go ahead and become a wedding present I needed to make for this summer, the rest will go up for sale as 154CM with the caveat. My bigger frustration is that 2 of the knives in the batch were custom orders sold and priced as S35VN, as of now at least one it looks like is 154, the other came from a different piece so that remains to be seen. So now I have to get more steel which I can't find in 3/32 right now, start those over, and hustle to stay within my lead time.

I haven't mentioned the vendor yet since it's not all settled. Mistakes happen and I'll get over it, as long as they make it right it's water under the bridge. Thanks for the help guys. I'll take one of the knives from the next batch down to 1200 grit and see what I can see just for the sake of curiosity.
 
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