Anybody besides me getting sick of reading stuff like this everyday?

Filbert, what is your point about Saddam being an ally of carter/Ragan/G.H.W. Bush governments Are you arguing that because three U.S. presidents didn't go to war against Saddam that it was wrong for our government to do so in Gulf I and/or Gulf II? Saddam was everybody's pal in the 1980's - France, U.S.S.R. (and later Russian Federation), everyone who wanted his $$$ and/or was more afraid of "militant Islam" than Saddam.

As for 9/11; it was a reminder that U.S. is not safe behind oceans -- as some had hoped we had learned in 1939-1941, when we were isolationists -- did not care enough what Hitler and Stalin were up to in Europe. Oh, we sent a little aid to England ("England Gate"?), but not much. England basically fought on alone -- without overt support of the "world community."

Did the present U.S. administration oversell? Probably. We will see. Saddam either destroyed - on his own without international supervision - tons of WOMD or he did not. Either Irag becomes a working democracy or it does not. If not, a failure. If so, an historic success - a first. As an educated person, you know that the only democracy in the mid-west is Israel.

Is Saddam responsible for 9/11? Probably not. Did Saddam financially support organizations that blow up civilians with indiscriminant bombing? That is not disputed. He bragged of aid to Hamas, etc. Does it matter that those civilians were not in the U.S.? Should it matter? (Did it matter in 1939?) Seems to me that bombs in Palestine are part of a pattern of events that bring bombs to N.Y.

Saddam obviously was not Sarge's "ally." Rhetorical flourish on your part. The miliary go to bleed where the politicians send them. Saddam was the ally of U.S., France, U.S.S.R., etc.

Seems to me you came on pretty hard. Others did likewise in reply. Not surprising. Cilization is a thin layer over the hunter-gatherer with a club in his hand.

TAL
 
a good debate, presenting some excellent point of views.

i don't really think that this issue is cut and dry. i hear alot from some of my Muslim buddies about why the U.S is so hated, and I read on various forums on how the U.S stepped up to the plate and took action.

frankly, i am sick and i am tired of hearing people (from any side) justifying certain acts.

so before you, them, us, we or anyone else goes ranting on about justifications (and i'm not pointing my Cdn finger to any particular side)

i want to damn well yonder to consider a few UNDISPUTABLE TRUTHS.

1) There is no amount of reasoning to justify the deliberate killing of innocent people. Oh and by the way, planting a bomb in a civilian market and saying "well i wanted to kill those bad man soldiers, it's not my fault that there were civilians there" is DELIBERATE.

2) Since before God created Earth... men of immeasurable evil have used "the scapegoat", "mob mentality", and yes... even religion to shift focus away from the real issues of society's misery.

3) If all else fails, and you can't figure out what to do, you're confused... people are screaming for blood... than go to your local Cdn embassy and seek advice from your friendly neighbourhood Canadian diplomat.
 
I usually avoid political discussions on this forum, since I have enough arguments on other forums. To me, this forum is sort of a peaceful place that has been a great source of knowledge and practical tips on khukuris and blades in general.

I will add this about the situation in Iraq.

It's only going to get worse. The war will probably widen and the odds of Iran and Syria getting involved are astronomically high. A lot more of our military personel will get to see the inside of a body bag and there will be a general draft, probably after the next national election.

It's not just the Middle East either. There are serious problems brewing in parts of Africa, the Indian sub-continent, and the Korean penninsula. Take note that the West is as dependent upon S. African minerals as they are upon oil imports, except there are few alternate sources for the S. African minerals.

If the Muslims, Arabs specifically, ever get united, WWIII won't be far off.

The Caliphate has been vacant for over 80 years now. A strong Caliph can unify them at this time like they haven't been in centuries. When the title of Caliph gets bestowed upon a strong leader, probably soon, brace yourself because those maniacs have got a grudge (not totally without reason) and they are going to set the world on fire.

------------------------
 
Well . . . at least US bases are out of Saudi Arabia away from Mecca and Medina.

But Bush / Cheney / Rumsfeld look like they lost their political gamble. We'll see for sue when elections come around next year and/or if America retreats back into a hole away from the rest of the world.

Feel for the men on the ground, though. How can you help but be just a pawn in a grand game? The only consolation being that (at least in today's world), you volunteered. So at least it was your own free choice. And if it helps, look at it as a job that needs to be done.
 
Well, it's late but I'm going to make one point I hope.

When someone says "it's just about oil", they make it sound like just go there and pump their oil, increase the supply, and lower the price for our benefit.

Oil is much more than that. The economic polices of many countries have made it so. There are global issues here.

Did you know that all international transactions of oil are conducted in US dollars?

The same dollars that the "Fed" is printing like mad to "stimulate the economy"? The same dollars whose supply gets further multipied many-fold through lending by fractional reserve banking so the US consumer can go further into debt at artificially low interest rates held down by the actions of the "Fed" and provide the only (temporary) spark to the domestic economy?

So how come inflation isn't rampant? It's there, and higher than the cooked government statistics say, but it doesn't reflect the action at the printing press and beyond. It's low because every purchaser of oil needs a bunch of US dollars to buy the stuff, and they buy dollars and US debt to get them. Their actions keep the domstic suppuly of US dollars low. If oil transactions were in other currencies we would be screwed. We would be flooded by returning US dollars and the resulting inlflation would be unstoppable. Not saying it's right, not saying it's smart and it's a bit of a racket. This is one of the things meant by "US hedgemony". The US should have accumulated some "rainy-day" reserves out of the deal, but instead, it was all leveraged, the country is more dependent on the arrangement than ever before, and things are very unstable.

What was the only country that priced oil in Euros?
Iraq--the "food for oil" thing, and it didn't last long before the invasion occured. Note that the UN "food for oil" arrangement was administered by a few Eurpean countries there are questions about whether the Europeans administering the arangement were benefitting more than they were supposed to. Recently (days) Russia has floated the idea of pricing oil in euros. Europe has economic issues similar to the US and they would dearly like to have the euro become a global reserve currency like the US dollar.

The US is set up to receive the brunt of "economic terroism". You think Iran likes conducting its oil transactions in dollars?

"Just for the oil" is an oxymoron. In the global economic environment that has been created in recent years, oil is a global Gordian knot.
 
There are too many points to discuss and the discussion is likely to go on forever.
I prefer to stop it here, as far as I am concerned, after one last point:
propaganda.

HJK wrote: "Judging by this thread alone, he is only repeating the propaganda out there about the war being about oil only, the absence of a connection to terrorism and the straw man argument that the USA claimed Iraq was responsible for 9/11. All three are false."

Did you actually read the BBC article? Do you thing BBC is making propaganda?

Even the chief of the Church of England, (Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams) and the Pope agreed on opposing to this was. Several members of the British Government resigned over the war on Iraq including Robin Cook, former UK foreign secretary and leader of the House of Commons and International Development Secretary Claire Short.
They are all part of a propagandistic conspiracy?

A few US diplomats resigned too!

One of them is John Brady Kiesling, a career diplomat who has served in United States embassies from Tel Aviv to Casablanca to Yerevan.
Here is an excerpt from letter of resignation to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, published , I understand, on the New York Times on February 27, 2003.

The sacrifice of global interests to domestic politics and to bureaucratic self-interest is nothing new, and it is certainly not a uniquely American problem. Still, we have not seen such systematic distortion of intelligence, such systematic manipulation of American opinion, since the war in Vietnam. The September 11 tragedy left us stronger than before, rallying around us a vast international coalition to cooperate for the first time in a systematic way against the threat of terrorism. But rather than take credit for those successes and build on them, this Administration has chosen to make terrorism a domestic political tool, enlisting a scattered and largely defeated Al Qaeda as its bureaucratic ally. We spread disproportionate terror and confusion in the public mind, arbitrarily linking the unrelated problems of terrorism and Iraq. The result, and perhaps the motive, is to justify a vast misallocation of shrinking public wealth to the military and to weaken the safeguards that protect American citizens from the heavy hand of government. September 11 did not do as much damage to the fabric of American society as we seem determined to so to ourselves.

Full text here, read it it’s very instructive:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/statement/2003/0227resignation.htm

Mr. John Brown, another US diplomat who resigned, wrote some interesting things too:
March 10, 2003
To: Secretary of State Colin Powell
Dear Mr. Secretary:
I am joining my colleague John Brady Kiesling in submitting my resignation from the Foreign service (effective immediately) because I cannot in good conscience support President Bush’s war plans against Iraq.
The president has failed:
To explain clearly why our brave men and women in uniform should be ready to sacrifice their lives in a war on Iraq at this time;
To lay out the full ramifications of this war, including the extent of innocent civilian casualties;
To specify the economic costs of the war for ordinary Americans;
To clarify how the war would help rid the world of terror;
To take international public opinion against the war into serious consideration.
Throughout the globe the United States is becoming associated with the unjustified use of force. The president’s disregard for views in other nations, borne out by his neglect of public diplomacy, is giving birth to an anti-American century.
I joined the Foreign Service because I love our country. Respectfully, Mr. Secretary, I am now bringing this calling to a close, with a heavy heart but for the same reason that I embraced it.

Is this propaganda? I think the propaganda was the one you saw in the U.S.A.
As I said, I’ll stop here my participation to this thread. Hope to have made my points clear enough… and in a civilized way.
Best regards.
 
Interesting points.

My bottom line is it irks me to see 2 or 3 or 4 of the finest young men you'll find anywhere getting killed off each day. I don't know what to do about it but but nothing helps the pain and anger.
 
it irks me to see 2 or 3 or 4 of the finest young men you'll find anywhere getting killed off each day.
Click to expand...

I believe that we should put this in perspective. We probably lose more then a 100 healthy Americans every day just to traffic accidents, and who knows how many equally dedicated police officers, plumbers, electricians, lawyers, construction workers, window dressers, teachers, fishermen, firemen, and etc. to work related accidents. Add in crime and other high risk behavior and it might actually be safer to sit on the front lines then on the home front.

Our press was shocked that a number of our troops were killed or seriously injured during their short leave at home. Just imagine how shocked they would be if they actually tracked the lives of these troops as intensely after they return as they did while they were out in the field. I don't want to belittle the sacrifice that our troops are making, but our troops entrust us to make the right decisions, and that means trying to keep a check on our own emotions so that we do not act to undermine their efforts.

n2s
 
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