Anybody ever use those cardboard wheels to sharpen? Can't get to work for me

G

godogs57

Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
795
Bought a cardboard wheel at the Blade Show and attached to a 1/4 hp motor...dressed the wheel with white rouge...watched a youtube video or two and just ain't cuttin the mustard for me. My first guess is it's certainly my fault but have no way of knowing. They are usually sold in sets with a plain wheel and a 220 grit wheel. I only got the plain wheel, figuring I should know by now how to put a proper 20 degree 220 grit edge on a blade. Well...I guess I'm an idiot....

Any helpful hints? Sure would appreciate it, as the folks that can make it work say they get some wicked sharp edges.

Thanks in advance!
 
Yeah..... I scare myself on how sharp kinves leave the shop..... Disclamer - the last person I talked to about the "Razor Sharp" system broke their wrist the first time they touched the wheel. If you use my advice you use it at your own risk - a risk of death is possible!

Most grinder wheel motors thurn from the top toward the person and then to the ground. If you use the paper stroping wheel this way you have to stand on your head because the blade is held facing down somehwere about 12-15 degrees above center of the wheel to strop. I cant see what I am doing there. Turn the motor around. WARNING - the grinder is now turning from the bottom and over the top!!! You can now hold the blade cuting edge facing what is now the back of the grinder and work about 12-15 degrees toward you from top dead center. Very lightly take the burr off the blade with a couple of light strops across the paper wheel.

If you touch the cutting edge to the wheel with the wheel turning into the edge, you will die or be hurt very very bad! Pay attention to how you are touching the blade to the wheel!!!

If you have any questions you can contact me via Facebook. Look for Gary Antley in Groveton Texas.
 
You might try over in Mainetance, Tinkering and Embellishment. There are a number of members there who use the wheels.
 
You'll need to build up a "burr". The plain wheel is basically a strop. Like anything else it takes practice.

I second the recommendation to try and get a hold of Richard.
 
Richard J swears by them, he and I have had several arguments about them in the past, I believe they are a great way to burn the steel at the extreme edge of your cutting edge producing a soft but aggressive wire edge (burr) vs the traditional way of sharpening which uses a cooling lubricant (oil or water) working through finer and finer grit abrasives until you get a very finely ground edge. Ymmv look up Richard.

-Page
 
I love the paper wheels but you have to have both of them, that's why they sell them together. One has grit that raises a burr. This could also be done with sandpaper, belt sander, stones, etc. The other one that's slotted and takes compound hones it and removes the burr. This wheel might touch it up but would never shapren it.
 
sunshadow said:
Richard J swears by them, he and I have had several arguments about them in the past, I believe they are a great way to burn the steel at the extreme edge of your cutting edge producing a soft but aggressive wire edge (burr) vs the traditional way of sharpening which uses a cooling lubricant (oil or water) working through finer and finer grit abrasives until you get a very finely ground edge. Ymmv look up Richard.

-Page
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. You're the first person I've seen dare to question Richard J's methods. What has me scratching my head is the questions still looming in my mind about the refinement and durability of an edge done in under a minute on a paper wheel system, and yes, the heat build up when you bring an edge to a full reprofile in 30 seconds. But I don't dare ask for fear of his many, many supporters. It's just an honest question, but damn the guy has some hardcore fans... They've totally turned me off to the idea. I'm still scratching my head because I've yet to get an answer on those questions. The supporters (I'm sure well-meaning) just insist that his paper wheel edge is perfect in every way. Not a very satisfying answer for someone who's asking a real question.

Have you tried the paper wheels? What do you think about the final edge and durability/edge-retention with use? What do you think the effect on the edge is? Send me a PM if you don't want to risk a flame war...
 
Last edited:
I have been using the paper wheels and they work great, 1) turn the grinder backward, 2) get a burr 3) polish the burr off. I did some testing with A2 blades and have not seen a difference in edge retention, I cut over 100 cuts of 3/8 rope with 1/8 A2 full flat grind, 0.015 edge 15 degree.
 
Well hearing what page posted, and the respect I have for his knowledge, I would like to hear more. I vaguely remember hearing of a study done with hand sanding surfaces getting up to 2000F.

Hopefully I can eavesdrop on a good discussion of it here. :eagerness:
 
I personally have not used the paper wheels. I have fixed knives that were "sharpened" by a knife sharpener who used them. The edge produced by them was a convex that met at almost 45 degrees when examined under magnification. Once I had sharpened them a few times, removing most of what had been at the edge, edge longevity improved (these were restaurant knives) which seems to support what I learned from Roman Landes a couple of years later about abrasive microheating during sharpening.

-Page
 
Had a pair sold em...
Think about what type of edge your putting on... It is a hollow grind. Yes it does raise a burr and will get very sharp
I went back to a convex on the slack belt of the grinder, 17-20deg 400 grit and then use a 15micron belt to lightly remove the burr
Leaving the toothy edge pretty much intact
Here is a great link with microscope pics and a number of different sharpening systems covered: http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/knifeshexps.pdf
But also shows the results of many grits and sharpening mediums
 
Last edited:
I will leave you with one quick thing to ponder. Think about what a burr really is. It is metal that has been somehow plastically deformed away from where it originally was. There is nothing magic about it. If your sharpening method involves inducing plastic deformation is it something you want to do to your edge?

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
I will leave you with one quick thing to ponder. Think about what a burr really is. It is metal that has been somehow plastically deformed away from where it originally was. There is nothing magic about it. If your sharpening method involves inducing plastic deformation is it something you want to do to your edge?

-Page
Click to expand...
Are you sayign you should sharpen without ever getting a burr?
 
Magnaminous_G said:
Thanks for this. You're the first person I've seen dare to question Richard J's methods. What has me scratching my head is the questions still looming in my mind about the refinement and durability of an edge done in under a minute on a paper wheel system, and yes, the heat build up when you bring an edge to a full reprofile in 30 seconds. But I don't dare ask for fear of his many, many supporters. It's just an honest question, but damn the guy has some hardcore fans... They've totally turned me off to the idea. I'm still scratching my head because I've yet to get an answer on those questions. The supporters (I'm sure well-meaning) just insist that his paper wheel edge is perfect in every way. Not a very satisfying answer for someone who's asking a real question.

Have you tried the paper wheels? What do you think about the final edge and durability/edge-retention with use? What do you think the effect on the edge is? Send me a PM if you don't want to risk a flame war...
Click to expand...

OK here is my take on them. I have bought and used every damn system under the sun (seriously) and I have to give the wheels credit for speed. My custom knives tend to be ground from seriously thick stock and I like a large primary bevel. I find most large sized knives have trouble with the wheels in part because of the distance between them is too small to complete a pass without bumping into the second wheel. Also the 220 gritted wheel is moving really really fast and finding a rhythm that allows a single smooth pass can be difficult. Also the wax from the wheel can be annoying to remove from a scary sharp blade. Where the wheels REALLY excel is small thin knives with small bevels. I can sharpen 12 small folders or small kitchen blades in the time it takes to do one on the stones.

As to durability, I have been testing the edge because like you I had doubts about any system that creates heat at the edge. I can say that I have been using the wheels for all my kitchen duty knives and can see ZERO difference in edge holding. I do pass the blade over the rouge side once a week to re-align the edge but that's it. All my kitchenware is custom made from 440c and my family cooks three meals a day with them. I can go 3-4 weeks before I need to hit them with the gritted wheel and re-establish the profile. Plus I'm a picky bitch about knicks and flats on my blades so I'm probably over sharpening. I find it embarrassing when people find a dull knife in my kitchen. ;)

Honestly I have ended up using the rouge wheel a lot more than the gritted wheel, mainly because I have a 2x72 grinder and hundreds of belts and jigs. For $50 I say it was money well spent and if my job consisted of sharpening pocket knives all day I would DEFINITELY not go without one.
 
cbr900son said:
Are you sayign you should sharpen without ever getting a burr?
Click to expand...

If I am getting a noticeable burr I am pressing too hard or the steel is too soft. The goal is a smooth continuous bevel meeting at an edge with a cross section of less than one micron. The burr comes from the force exerted exceeding the elastic limits of the material at the edge and rolling away from the sharpening medium and staying there. You turn the blade over and that little ribbon flexes the other way. The 220 gives you a series of little ribbons kind of like the pointy flags on a streamer at a used car dealer, the rouge just polishes them and gets them standing in a row like little sharks teeth. They will be aggressive as heck until they get bent up or broken off, they will go through with things like meat and cardboard pretty well but will fail on harder substances like wood and soft metals and will get mashed up on hard cutting boards and bones

-Page
 
cbr900son said:
Are you sayign you should sharpen without ever getting a burr?
Click to expand...

In theory you should sharpen without burring. Grit and angles being the same, an edge thats formed a burr then had it removed via stropping wont hold and edge like an edge thats had the edge apexed without burr formation, if only by a few cuts as the metal behind the burr is weakened. One thing that is being done by Cliffstamp is forming an apex, lightly cutting the stone to remove the stressed metal, then carefully re-apexing without a burr. I dont to this; as much as he says it helps. You can also microbevel lightly. I always end up forming the slightest burr which is basically gone before the time im on my 0.1 micron wood strop/"stone". At this stage I usually end up microbeveling anyway at anywhere between 600 grit and 0.1 microns without forming a burr, then lightly stropping on a loaded strop ( 0.5 or 0.1 u leather strop)
 
Last edited:
I'm not touching this topic with a 10' pole as long as Richard has my phone number! I already got a call from him because my son's santoku wasn't sharpened on the wheels.
 
zaph1 said:
I'm not touching this topic with a 10' pole as long as Richard has my phone number! I already got a call from him because my son's santoku wasn't sharpened on the wheels.
Click to expand...
I got a couple of phone calls from him, then I think he realized it was a waste of his time. I was worried there might be another call from this thread, thankfully my phone has been silent. :)

-Page
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top