Anybody heard from Mohd?

I just know that Mohd's posts touch my heart. They are from one who no more understands why God allows these things than I do.

I know that Yvsa's Native American and Uncle Bill's Buddhist faiths sometimes leave them with the same lack of understanding about why but somehow teach me. I have another friend on another forum who is Jewish and his questions of God's purpose resonate in me also.

Faith is too important to be taught by rote or preached in a church or synagogue or mosque. It needs to be lived each day. And observed in others, then implemented in my life.

To forget ourselves and let our hearts speak, and to listen to what is in others hearts is the goal. Sufism I want to know more of. The Sikh way. The glory of beauty in the desert. The interconnectedness.

Canticles, ( the Song of Songs, the Song of Solomon ) speaks to me the most strongly of a love, a passion, a joy, a compact between us and a God who will not be denied his conquest eventually.

I suspect the Christian Reformation came about because the Catholic and Protestant hierarchies needed to be too distracted to pay attention to the monasteries and to leave them alone long enough to rediscover the spiritual disciplines which let us discover the Great Mystery piece by tiny peace.

To listen, to learn, to live justly, with compassion, and remain teachable, to eventually bear spiritual fruits. It can be done, but damned if I got it figured out.

Then again, maybe I just need to go out and kill something. ( VBEG )
 
Mohd, I do not hate Muslims. I do not hate Buddhists. I do not hate Jews. I do not hate Hindus. I do not hate any religion. I am guilty of hating some members of these religions. I am guilty of hating some members of my own religion too. It is not their religion I hate but the actions or inactions of the individual, regardless of religion. Any who deny anothers rights to live as they choose, so long as it does not endanger others, is my enemy. The United States was built on the pricnciple that you can live however you want to as long as it does not interfere with someone else living how they want to. There are members of ALL religions who deny this principle and denounce it as evil. It is live their way or no way. There are groups like this within America itself, from all different religions. These are the people I hate. Any one who would deny the rights of another is my enemy. You do not need to defend yourself or you beliefs from me, so long as they don't violate the principle of Freedom. You are welcome in my home, so long as you don't try to force me to live differently while you are there. The USA tries to defend this principle wherever it is challenged. Afghanistan challenged it. They don't like how we live. We are the "Great Satan". They do not approve of our lifestyle, foreign policies or politics. They attacked us for them. Bin Laden and others think we and any who are not in agreement with them, should not be allowed to live as we choose. They hide this behind religious principle, but it is not about religion but intolerance. We are taking the actions we have always taken. It should be no surprise to anyone. It is not about religion, it is about where you stand on the principle of Freedom.
 
The number of people killed by the US in Afganistan has been totally insignificant when compared to the number of people killed by the Taliban within Afganistan. If anything the US attacks may have reduced the number of innocent people killed there on a daily basis.

Afganistan is a disaster, neither the West nor the other Muslim nations, nor the Afganistani people themselves, have done anything to stabalize the nation after a prolonged conflict. The current attacks are probably the first constructive thing that anyone has done for this country in over 20 years. At least now Afganistan has a blip on our policy discussions. I only wish we could do away with the propaganda and religious rethoric and instead focus on the real issue of putting in place a stable and responsible government.

n2s
 
I have to say "Me too!" MauiRob put it very well. We -- all of us -- have been unanimous in saying that we respect Islam no less than we respect Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and all the other religions people hold dear and live by. We like and respect you, Mohd, no less because of the actions of Osama bin Laden and his gang of thugs.

I'll add that I, like you, support the people of Afganistan. It is not Afganistan that attacked the US. Osama and Al Qaeda did. The Taliban support them, but the Taliban are not the people of Afganistan. They are a minority that happen to have gained power for a while. The history of Afganistan does not make me feel that the rule of the Taliban is going to be long or unchallenged and their future as rulers of Afganistan did not seem well assured even before the recent events.

I cry for the civilians who have lost their lives and/or livelihoods as a result of this conflict. Some people seem to believe that simply living in a country whose rulers do bad things is sufficient to disqualify people from our sympathy. I do not. They are no more guilty of the terrorist attack on the WTC than the Sherpa and Nepali people who have suffered as a result of these troubles.

N2S has suggested that "the US attacks may have reduced the number of innocent people killed there on a daily basis" and he may even be right. I don't know. I would like to, but I doubt that I ever will. The US bombing may shorten the time that the Taliban has in power and that, IMHO, would be a good thing, as long as whoever takes power after them is not just as bad. We can't see the future, but we have to do something anyway. In the meantime, innocent people will be hurt -- impoverished, crippled, killed. I wish we could avoid it, but we can't. That is part of the grim reality of war. It is part of what is wrong with the world and part of what I hope we can someday rise above.

Don't become a stranger because some people fear and distrust Muslims. Some people do, but we are not those people. This forum is your home, Mohd. We know you are not a terrorist. One of our greatest strengths here is our diversity. As Howard said in another thread, "all of us are wiser than any of us." Without you we are less than all of us.

Paul
 
we are all different, but we do share somethings in common or we would not be on the forums.

if we did not have differences of opinion there would be nothing for us to discuss here ,hence no forum.

God,Allah,Yaweh,Buddah, or Odin, doesnt matter what you call him we all answer to someone sooner or later.

while we are here lets make the most of it.

let he who is without sin cast the first stone

judge not thy neighbor


CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
Mohd,

I'm glad to see your post. Where minds can meet in friendship across cultures we should take advantage of the opportunities.

To understand the responses you must understand how we feel.

Terrorists have come to my land and are killing my brothers. I think that those governments who harbor and aid the terrorists bear the same responsibility as the people who fly the aircraft or put the anthrax in the letters. Furthermore I think that people bear the responsibility for the actions of their government.

I fully support the US military action against Afghanistan. I do not support my government's humanitarian aid for Afghanistan until the government has been overthrown. I think we Americans should focus our efforts on winning decisively. In my opinion it would have been efficient for us to bomb the clerics who rule Afghanistan when they were assembled in Kandahar discussing their response to President Bush. I say this not because they are Muslims, but because they rule a government that is attempting to kill us.

I believe it will save all of the world's citizens a lot of trouble if good people take a stand against evil actions of their government or their religious leaders. The actions of leaders are in the name of the people they represent. Without the people leaders have no power. I think this is related to what Blues is trying to say. Of course, we Americans also bear responsibility for the actions of our government. I assume my responsibility with honor.

On my part, I will fight to the death those who would try to kill my family or my brother Americans. I will encourage my countrymen to do the same. That includes those who knowingly harbor our clandestine killers, then later proclaim their innocence.

I still count you as my friend. From what I know of you, you are one of the good people on this earth. I welcome your thoughts and your presence here in the forum.
 
I'm going to put this question to Mohd and I want everybody to stay tuned for his answer because the answer will tell us a lot and I think clear up any misconceptions:

Nephew, you and I have not met in person but we know one another by our personal email and our dealings. I have one question and I know you will answer it honestly as you have dealt honestly and openly with me in the past.

If old Pakcik Bill was a guest in your home and a Muslim terrorist came to your home and wanted to kill me what would you do?

Excellent post, Howard -- as usual.
 
Originally posted by mohd
pakcik bill, mauirob, walosi, yvsa, harry, rusty, all of you friends!
Click to expand...

sorry for being hiding in my own self with sorrow and sadness of everything that already happened and still going on happening!

all this while i thought i was aready dead in your hearts! once a while i visits the forums but i scared to make any post - my present as a muslim might hurt you all.[/B][/QUOTE]

Mohd I can perhaps understand your reasons for not posting, especially after the post you made in the political forum. However I was very disapointed that you didn't come back there to defend yourself.

And since we are all speaking from our own hearts to your post I have to say that I believe that if you are going to make posts such as this and the one in the political forum that you need desperately to better learn just where you stand in the world and what your agenda's are. And if you don't have the information and education about such matters to back yourself up and are not willing to search the truth out, then, yes, I think that maybe you wouldn't be my friend anymore.
I agree with Blues when he wrote....

Blues wrote:
"Mohd, learn to think for yourself and stand on your own two feet.

It seems that every time you post one of these rants there is a latent political message you try to sell here.

I, for one, am finding it tiresome, especially camouflaged within this self pitying act of confusion and innocence.

(My apologies to Uncle Bill and the Cantina for my seeming invective but if this board is going to be open to statements such as the one posted above then I claim my right to respond.)"
Click to expand...

And I also agree with what Jim wrote.

just like ordinary peace loving muslim - a lot of things confuse me - you all are friends ... muslims are my faith brothers ... murder everywhere in US, palestine, afghanistan - where should i stand? some american called muslims as terrorist ... am i a terrorist? i don't even know how to pull a trigger!
Click to expand...

You should stand on your own two feet and read everything possible to learn where you actually stand.
And Mohd you don't have to pull a trigger to be a terrorist. There are way to many young Islam's that are willing to wrap themselves with explosives and blow up innocent people.
Military targets are one thing as the militaries of every country are paid to be in harms way, But the Innocent should never be a
target(s)!!

last time i like to send post card to terry & sandy - now i dare not to send anything to US - if somehow the card carry anthrax ... i might be suspected as terrorist! remember there was a case of anthrax letter at reno - just imagine what will happened to me if that letter carry my name & address - so scarry - i can deny it but nobody will believe me ... not even Malaysian govt will hear my denial!

sometimes i just don't know how to think properly - i am not a lover of terrorism - at the same time i have to support innocent Afghani - at the same time i have to oppose US attack on Afghan - what should i do?
Click to expand...

Mohd there is not one of us here I believe that does not support the afghan people nor are there any of us that does not support Islam.
We and our government have repeatedly said we are not against the afghani people or Islam.
We are just against the terrorists and the ones who support terrorism that is ruling Afghanistan.

I don't support any government that enslaves people nor do I support any religion that enslaves people.
And you don't have to oppose the attack on the Afghanistan regime that's torturing and killing innocent people daily do you?

islam is not just a ritual religion - we muslim believe that islam is the only way of life - we have to think and act according to what stated in alqur_an - we have to sleep the muslim style of sleeping - we have to talk the muslim way - we have to eat only halal (ie. allowable) food the way muslim eat - we have to socialise as permitted by religion - our ladies have to wear scarf and hide their bodies - our men have to grow beard and wear topis - we have to implement our muslim law & ruling ... see a muslim way of thinking and action are different! so - is it wrong if we want to build our country to follow the way stated in alqur_an? is it wrong if we want to impose the islamic law on muslim without jeorpardizing the freedom of others from other religions?
Click to expand...

Mohd for many years in times past the people of Islam and others of different race, creed and color have lived side by side in peace.
If I remember correctly Islam was once noted for the freedom of expression it allowed all of the people that weren't of the Islam faith.
It's only wrong when the extremists of any religion start imposeing rules on people that enslave and demean them that it becomes wrong.
There are people in every religion that would do this if the could.
Islam is not alone in having such extremists as Usama Bin Laden.
Other religions have had their's as well.

see friends ... a lot of questions cramming my small head! i might have the answer but my answer will be according to islamic perspective - while you might have a totally different perspective! so ... now ... sincerely ... who am i in your eyes? am i your enemy? isn't it confusing?
Click to expand...

Mohd there are many of us searching and asking questions to understand what exactly is going on.
And our answers come from many places, Not just our perspectives because perspectives can be Very Wrong!!!!
And sometimes it is difficult to find the real answers, but one has to seek out many sources to find the right answers.
Not just those that our clergy would spoon feed us.
As to having an Islamic perspective, I'm not real sure what that may be.
There are many Islamic people living here in the USA that are very much for the attacks on the Taliban Regime and Usama Bin Laden.
The Islamic people living here want the terrorism to stop.

Mohd wrote:
"who am i in your eyes? am i your enemy? isn't it confusing?"
Click to expand...

Mohd I wish I knew for sure. There was a time I would have upheld your honor and defended you to the depths of hell if I believed in such a thing.
And I did defend you in the political forum, but as I said above, "I was very disapointed you didn't come back and defend yourself."
But I didn't know if that was your way or your culture's way or what.
When a man says something in this country he had better be ready to defend his belief's and his sources.
Your source's however were all very biased and definitely
Anti-Semetic.
And I quit defending you when you wouldn't defend yourself.
And for me personally that is when I started questioning your motive's.

So you may very well be my enemy. I would pray it isn't so because I have a genuine friendship for you.
And yet I have a Love and Friendship for my own son and yet I could see where there might be a time he would be my enemy as well.

And yes, I have to agree it is confusing right now. And yet I know it doesn't have to be.
A lot of that will depend on your answers....and if you do answer.

may Allaah SWT give His guidance to live in this mundane world to all of us ...
Click to expand...

I agree that the Great Mystery by whatever name mere mortal men may call the Great Mystery give the Great Mystery's guidance to this world.
 
I was writeing and just finishing up while you were posting.
I agree with what you say.

I wish I had waited so I could have said, "What Howard said."
Great post Howard!!!!
 
And another excellent post that rings with Cherokee eloquence.

We will all learn a lot, perhaps even Mohd himself, when he answers the question I asked him.
 
Mohd,

I think everyone on this forum is tolerant and has a deep respect for all religions Islam included. From what I've read of all the posts, no one is accusing you of being a terrorist or of supporting terrorists. One thing I would like to mention though is that after going on those sites you posted, I understand how your opinion came to be formed. However, you should question whether that opinion is a balanced one or not. There was nothing wrong in posting links to those sites, if in addition to those sites, you had read opposing views from other sites that showed what happened from our perspective here in the US. While I agree that there are many unresolved issues such as the Palestinian issue, Iraq etc, there is no excuse in the world for attacks upon innocent people. When you start to attack innocent people, that action ceases to be war, but rather, it becomes murder.

Just to give you an example, when I lived in India for 12 years, in Punjab, there were people who called themselves freedom fighters. They claimed that they wanted to bring Sikhism back to the way it was practiced (so they claimed). To that end, they started dictating that Sikh men should start wearing the turban again and have their beards a certain length. Sikh women were not to wear any makeup and were not to be seen dating. Initially, this was viewed as being a revival of the by most people. But as time went on, these so-called freedom fighters eventually started forcing themselves upon innocent villagers. They used to demand that villagers give up their daughters to them or risk getting shot. These so-called freedom fighters used to kill innocent Hindu men, women and children and also Sikhs who disagreed with their ideals and their fundamentalism were killed. Eventually people in Punjab got so sick and tired of the freedom fighters that they organized themselves and started killing any terrorist who set foot in their villages, often very brutally. Any terrorist who was caught, typically had their hands and feet cut off and were tied outside in 118 degree temperatures to have their bones pecked clean by carrion crows.

My point in this is that when you want to find information about what's happening, you should be balanced in what you read and do not take one side of opinion as being the absolute truth, because the truth may be something entirely different.

Sorry about the long post everyone, and I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way. I'm not trying to beat up on Mohd, but rather to try and show him another way of looking at things.

Arvind
 
Let's not be too impatient, please.

We (Americans, that is) have a strong feeling about how a person ought to stand behind his statements or, when appropriate, stand up and admit he was wrong. It's easy to forget that our norms are just that, norms, not necessarily universal truths. What we are expecting here is "good manners." But what is "good manners" in one culture is not necessarily the same in another. I can't say anything at all about Malaysian culture with any feeling of certainty, but my impressions of Thai culture are that one handles "conflict" or even "disagreement" quite differently from how we expect to handle those situations in the USA and that avoidance of conflict or disagreement is regarded as much better manners than "standing up for onesself."

My (admittedly imperfect) impressions of Mohd's feelings from his one recent post are that he is suffering from sudden and surprising culture shock. I have to say that I still suspect that Mohd is merely politically naive rather than an agitator or troll. I would be very disappointed if I found out I was wrong on that. We learn, in the US, to be skeptical. Decent schools actively teach us to be critical of ideas that seem too attractive. I don't know the schools in Malaysia, but it would not surprise me at all if they did not emphasize anti-propaganda modes of thinking. The traditions in most of the world do not. I believe that is a failing of that sort of education, and even a weakness in individuals who have not learned it, but we can't rightly hold it a moral failing of those individuals.

Mohd, I can understand if you feel uncomfortable, but like several of the more recent posters, people for whom you have had trust in the past, I need to tell you that despite the cultural differences, you would come across much better in the American view if you came back and posted more clearly. It's not a virtue in America to hang back and avoid the issues. You may regard that as polite avoidance of giving offense. Most Americans "feel" (even when we try to avoid judging you harshly) that it is more like "cowardly running away" or even dishonest.

Come on back and talk openly. It will probably be hard, but I believe you are a good man and nobody is going to accuse you of being dishonest or immoral. If you read some of the recent threads, you will see that there have been divergent points of view:rolleyes: on subjects like how we (the US) ought to deal with Afganistan or what kind of attitudes we (as individuals) ought to adopt toward terrorists. (Whether we are actually capable of holding the "right" attitudes or not is a different matter. I have already said that I would not be at all surprised if I failed in my own ability to hold the attitudes that I have decided I think are the right ones.) Nevertheless, we have also seen that we can still respect each other and our different opinions. I cannot even imagine anything that Uncle Bill or Yvsa or Rusty (for a few examples) could say that could cause me to lose my respect for them. Non-verbal cues are often more powerful than verbal ones, however. Yvsa is having trouble deciding about you, I think, because "polite avoidance" is not the expected response here. You have described your concerns but then disappeared when others have expressed dissatisfaction. That doesn't work well in this medium. Rather than defusing the potential conflict, it merely feeds "our" doubts about you. We'd much rather have our doubts demolished than avoid arguing with you. Come on back and clarify your thinking.

Much of what you cited in the political thread was anti-Israeli propaganda. I don't want to say that pro-Israeli propaganda is any better. Both sides have put out enough self-serving "information" that nobody can even start to sort it all out without a lot of deep research. The history of that conflict goes back a long way. I don't know how to cut through the b***s*** in any reasonable time. Still, somehow, the cycle needs to be broken there as in many other, similar situations. We will never solve the conflicts in Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, Kashmir, or others by continuing to fight. We need to break out of the cycle of violence from all sides. I hope it can be done and I am sure it will not happen within my lifetime. I really don't think that the HI forum on BFC is where or how we will solve any of them, but at least sometimes we may reach out and touch someone's life on the other side of the world. Understanding is always a good thing.

Sorry for the length of this post. I just hope it proves more helpful than harmful.

Paul
 
Paul,

With all due respect, please don't assume ignorance about other cultures because we are Americans. This is a multicultural forum within a multicultural website.

I live and work in a multicultural environment. In fact, lucky me, I get to investigate crimes by citizens of countries far and wide. I also get to spend a great deal of time with members of their governments and intellectual institutions.

What I am saying is that when I wrote "tick tock" I knew exactly what and why I was writing what I did. I do not apologize for it. If you wish to express your opinion on a subject, that's fine. I have no problem with it whatever. I respect your right to say what you wish, and will defend your right to do so. But please do not assume the right to temper my statement or put it within what you perceive to be politically correct boundaries. I noticed that you felt free to digress into quite a litany after telling me to be patient. Not what I would consider to be good form.

I also don't know why you feel a need to interpret why Yvsa feels as he does as he expresses himself quite eloquently without the aid of an interpreter. Now, if you know something about his feelings that I don't, then perhaps you will explain it here. However, as I have rather frequent contact with him, I have a feeling that perhaps you should limit yourself to expressing your own point of view.

I'm sorry that I have come across as critical but I am a bit touchy at the moment on this subject. Mohd has done more than "stir it up" regarding Israel with anti-Semitic propaganda. He has also done so with regard to racial matters in the US from current and past history.
In all of these matters his methodology has been one of hit and run.

Interestingly enough, a person who lives (or lived, I don't recall at this moment) in Mohd's part of the world characterized the behavior as intentionally "acting blur". Perhaps you will take the time to search for those threads and posts and read them as I and many others have.

So, please, allow me my right to be abrupt, and I'll allow your right to disagree.
 
OK, Blues, I'll try not to assume ignorance. I'm sure you did know exactly what you were doing and why when you wrote what you did, but I'm far less sure that I know what you were doing or why. "Tick tock" sounds pretty impatient to me, though, and whether I am right or wrong about that, I think we can afford to be more patient. I know for sure that impatience is one of my own vices. If I see it in others, I may be right or I may be projecting. You have all the right in the world to disagree. I'm still not completely clear on whether you think the time for patience is expired, or if you think I was wrong for thinking you were impatient. I apologize if you took what I said as "tempering" your statement. (I assume (and I do know what they say about "assume") that you have strong feelings and that you intended to say something about those feelings.

I recall reading the thread in the political forum that Yvsa pointed out, but I don't recall seeing anything from Mohd about race problems in the US. Perhaps there is more history than I am aware of. (Then again, there are certainly a whole lot of things that I am unquestionably unaware of.)

Regarding the "acting blur" comment and the threads you referred to, I will be happy to try to find them. A clue or two might be helpful. Were these threads on the political forum or somewhere else? Should I use the phrase "acting blur" as a search key? Is there anything else specific that you think I ought to look for to try to remedy my ignorance? (I'm not trying to put the word "ignorance" into your mouth. I admit to ignorance in the matters you are talking about. Fortunately, ignorance is curable and I will try to at least alleviate mine a bit.)

Yes, I went on for quite a length about why I think patience is called for. I'm sorry you don't think it's good form, but I do feel it's on topic. My diagnosis of Mohd's behavior could be wrong. My diagnosis of how some of our other participants are interpreting Mohd's behavior could be wrong. Both could be wrong. I have never been afraid to go out on a limb and the result is that I have been wrong more than once. (More than a few times!) If I am wrong, just say so. I'm fine with that. You did say that you think I have wronged you with my implications that you do not understand other cultures or mores. That implication is much more specific than I intended. I apologize for that. (And Mohd can see what to do when you screw up: stand up and apologize.)

Yvsa can speak for himself if he thinks I am wrong about him. If so, then I apologize for any inappropriate words I may seem to have put into his mouth too. I don't claim to have any special insight into Yvsa's mind. I do have a very strong respect for him. Still, whether I am right or wrong about Mohd's behavior, I suspect I am right about other people's perception of it as "cowardly" or as "running away" or even as "dishonest". And this is what I believe I hear Yvsa saying with words like "I was very disapointed that you didn't come back there to defend yourself" or "And if you don't have the information and education about such matters to back yourself up and are not willing to search the truth out, then, yes, I think that maybe you wouldn't be my friend anymore." These and other words strike me as implying that Mohd's behavior has a strong meaning in our culture. I suspect (and, as usual, I could easily be wrong) that Mohd's behavior could very well have a different meaning within Mohd's culture. If I am wrong about either the meaning(s) that Yvsa and others have associated with the behavior or about the meanings that Mohd associates with what he is doing, then I will be very sorry both for misrepresenting one or more people whom I like and respect and because I will be terribly unhappy with the actual situation.

I think that all of the questions that Uncle Bill, Jim Clifton and Yvsa have asked are quite straightforward and within bounds. I would never ask those questions of a presumed friend just out of the blue, but Mohd did open the door for them with his own response. Again, I cannot speak for any of them, but I interpreted them as handing Mohd an opportunity to dissipate a lot of tension by answering them. I don't have any idea of how Mohd would interpret them, but I have often seen people take such questions as attacks rather than as invitations to state a strong denial.

I can't speak for Mohd any more than I can speak for anyone else, but I can speak to Mohd and explain how a failure to answer is interpreted. I believe that my explanation of that interpretation is not unjustified. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am unjustified and I know that most folks here will see the difference. Whenever I say anything, BTW, everyone is invited to explain why I am wrong. That way my mistakes at least have some value. (They can always serve as bad examples.:)) I sincerely hope that my offered explanation of why Mohd may be doing what he is doing is correct, or at least close. I admit I have a lot less justification for that.

Blues has every right to be "a bit touchy" and "abrupt". Personally, I did think "tick tock" was both overly concise and impatient. I'm glad to hear a bit more of the reasoning behind it.

As usual, I have been long-winded. If too much so, I'm sorry, but I don't know how else to say what I think needs to be said. I hope I've made clear that my thought and opinions are my own and that noone who has not specifically endorsed them is obligated in any way by them. Anyone who disagrees is invited to say so. OK?

Paul
 
Paul, the race relations thread with Mohd's posts is in the Political Forum. Do a search on Mohd's name in the Political Forum.

Bob
 
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