Anyone else have a Harig 618 automatic here?

[REK Knives]

Having a wiring issue and if someone else has one that would be super helpful to compare

 

[Stang Bladeworks]

If nobody has one I can try to help. Feel free to dm me your email if you want and maybe we can figure it out. I work on electrical systems for my work. Im no expert but i can take a look.

 

[12345678910]

Post up the photos let's a ll see it.

 

[Drew Riley]

Give us some pics and info. While some of the automatic surface grinders look complicated, they’re usually pretty straight forward on wiring from one machine to the next. We may be able to help just by seeing what you’re working with.

 

[REK Knives]

OK thanks guys!

So I wired up a North America RPC and ran it to my machine, and the machine powers on fine and wheel/spindle seems to operate fine. But my oil sump pump at the base of the column isn't pumping oil onto the ways and lead screws so I'm trying to diagnose what the issue could be.

First thing I did was check the voltage on the supplying plug w/ the machine turned on, I am getting 140v on one of the legs. The other one seems dead. I was assuming that this was a 115v pump but after pulling off the cover I found it's supposed to be 220v so this is probably the issue.

I started tracing the power from the original 3 phase input power. Here is the board and wiring schematic:

What I traced the issue to seems to be the transformer (T-1) directly after the input power fuses. H1 and H2 are the input power and I'm getting about 245v between both of them total. When I check the output power side X3 and X1 I'm only getting 140v between them. What is weird is when I check the individual terminals on X3 or X1 and put the other lead on the ground it's only measuring about 7-8v each. So I don't understand how individucally it can be 7-8v but together it can be 140v - go figure. Maybe it's my power meter?

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here's a zoomed in shot of the transformer plate. It has an X3 terminal that one of the wires was connected to which is what I originally checked. Yesterday I moved that wire to X2 based upon the diagram so now I'm getting about 115v between the two (X2 and X1) which is more reasonable. But it's weird because my meter is not picking up any of the x terminators individually when I check that with the regular ground that goes back to the breaker panel.

Anyway,when I turn on the spindle the spindle kicks on and seems to run fine, and the spindle light comes on (but the main power light doesn't). But yeah, the issue is that when I turn on the spindle and check the input power to the lube pump I'm just getting one of the lines being hot (115v), so the motor won't run since it's 220v.

I guess what I don't understand is the need for the T-1 transformer if the lube pumps is 220v then what is the point of running the 2 lines (H1 and H2 which come directly from L1 and L2) when they should just connect to the lube pump with each leg being 115v or so - so I'm wondering if the pump was replaced at some point.

Anyway, do you think the transformer is the issue?

 

[Drew Riley]

Sounds like your transformer is fine. According the the schematic and the Xfr nameplate, you should be getting around 115(ish) out of your secondary with a 208V supply into H1 and H2.
That would lead me to believe that the lube pump SHOULD be a 115V pump.

If I had to guess, I'd say that pump was replaced with the wrong model. If you look up the Bijur pumps that Harig uses, there's a 110V model (32671) AND a 220V model (32671-1). You obviously have the 220V model, but I would guess that it originally came with the 110V. Now, you could probably bypass the transformer and just run it on 220V, but it looks like there are a few other things tied into the same circuit that run off of 110V, so you might have to isolate it from those components.

The right side of the schematic is cut off, but it looks like there's a starter for the coolant and hydraulic pumps on the same circuit, as well as some lights and whatnot.
Looks like the lube pump is supposed to kick on with the spindle when the spindle motor starter is engaged.

So I suppose you have a couple of options:
1) separate the lube pump circuit entirely: This means you'd have to remember to turn it on and off with spindle (meaning you'd wire a separate switch to supply 220V to the lube pump (not my favorite option, but an option nonetheless).
2) add an additional contactor, and tie the 110V leads that would have fed the original lube pump into the coil of said contactor. You'd then run 220V to the contactor similar to the others, but only "single phase" instead of 3.
3) Pull the 220V from your spindle contactor load side (which will turn the pump on/off with the spindle)
4) Buy the correct 110V pump and wire as originally designed.

 

[REK Knives]

Sounds like your transformer is fine. According the the schematic and the Xfr nameplate, you should be getting around 115(ish) out of your secondary with a 208V supply into H1 and H2.
That would lead me to believe that the lube pump SHOULD be a 115V pump.

If I had to guess, I'd say that pump was replaced with the wrong model. If you look up the Bijur pumps that Harig uses, there's a 110V model (32671) AND a 220V model (32671-1). You obviously have the 220V model, but I would guess that it originally came with the 110V. Now, you could probably bypass the transformer and just run it on 220V, but it looks like there are a few other things tied into the same circuit that run off of 110V, so you might have to isolate it from those components.

The right side of the schematic is cut off, but it looks like there's a starter for the coolant and hydraulic pumps on the same circuit, as well as some lights and whatnot.
Looks like the lube pump is supposed to kick on with the spindle when the spindle motor starter is engaged.

So I suppose you have a couple of options:
1) separate the lube pump circuit entirely: This means you'd have to remember to turn it on and off with spindle (meaning you'd wire a separate switch to supply 220V to the lube pump (not my favorite option, but an option nonetheless).
2) add an additional contactor, and tie the 110V leads that would have fed the original lube pump into the coil of said contactor. You'd then run 220V to the contactor similar to the others, but only "single phase" instead of 3.
3) Pull the 220V from your spindle contactor load side (which will turn the pump on/off with the spindle)
4) Buy the correct 110V pump and wire as originally designed.

You laid it out really well... I think you are spot on and will probably pick up a little giant pump (I've read they will fit right in and are pretty cheap) for 115v.

 

[REK Knives]

but... this is what I don't understand. Background: I purchased this from a college where they had moved into a new building and gotten new equipment.

The pump had REALLY old fuel lines running out of it, they were really stiff and looked like they had not been replaced in ages, and the ways still have some oil on them. Which seems to indicate that it DID work at some point.

So on the diagram above line 10 comes from the X2 terminal on the transformer and 16 comes from X1... what power readings should I be picking up from each line individually?

 

[JTknives]

Well your looking at a 2.19 reduction on your incoming voltage (give it take). So if your imputing on H1&H2 240v then X1 to X2 should be around 110v. But are you asking if you measure X to ground/machine frame? But if you look at you transformer picture your not tied to X2. Your tied to x3 which says 115v with 208v input. That means your output is only reduced by a factor of 1.808. Which means with a 240v input you should be getting 132.7v. But with say 220v input you would get 121v. On your schematic it shows X2 or in your case X3 is tied to ground. So if you measure X1 to the frame of the machine you will measure full voltage. If you measure X2/X3 to machine your just measuring it to its self.
It’s quite common to run an isolation transformer between supply voltage and anything that a person could come in contact with. This way your limiting the current and not exposing components to full line potential. I would also say the wrong pump is installed.

 

[Drew Riley]

As for the oil still on the ways, it’s anyone’s guess. Ways oil doesn’t immediately go away, and in fact, very little is being pumped at a given time. I haven’t looked up the specs on those Bijur pumps, but they probably only pump 1-2 cubic centimeters of oil per hour, unless it’s a recirculating system, then it might be more. Could be that someone manually lubed the ways after the pump went out, and just threw that one on to sell it, or it could be that once the pump went out, the machine wasn’t used very much after.

edit: my bad. That pump puts out about 40 cc/ min, and runs out of a sump. So yeah, you would likely see SOME ways oil from when the first one was running, as long as they weren’t running it dry for too long. Given that someone appears to have tried to change the pump, they seems to have tried to keep up with the machine properly, and it likely wasn’t used much without a working pump, if at all. This is all conjecture of course, but not unreasonable I suppose.

They may not have wanted to put anymore work/money into it, and that could be why it sold.

 

[REK Knives]

Sounds like your transformer is fine. According the the schematic and the Xfr nameplate, you should be getting around 115(ish) out of your secondary with a 208V supply into H1 and H2.
That would lead me to believe that the lube pump SHOULD be a 115V pump.

If I had to guess, I'd say that pump was replaced with the wrong model. If you look up the Bijur pumps that Harig uses, there's a 110V model (32671) AND a 220V model (32671-1). You obviously have the 220V model, but I would guess that it originally came with the 110V. Now, you could probably bypass the transformer and just run it on 220V, but it looks like there are a few other things tied into the same circuit that run off of 110V, so you might have to isolate it from those components.

The right side of the schematic is cut off, but it looks like there's a starter for the coolant and hydraulic pumps on the same circuit, as well as some lights and whatnot.
Looks like the lube pump is supposed to kick on with the spindle when the spindle motor starter is engaged.

So I suppose you have a couple of options:
1) separate the lube pump circuit entirely: This means you'd have to remember to turn it on and off with spindle (meaning you'd wire a separate switch to supply 220V to the lube pump (not my favorite option, but an option nonetheless).
2) add an additional contactor, and tie the 110V leads that would have fed the original lube pump into the coil of said contactor. You'd then run 220V to the contactor similar to the others, but only "single phase" instead of 3.
3) Pull the 220V from your spindle contactor load side (which will turn the pump on/off with the spindle)
4) Buy the correct 110V pump and wire as originally designed.

I posted up the whole schematic, pic 1 of the schematic is the left side and pic 3 is the right side

I don't see how it works - when you turn on the spindle motor how does it turn on the lube pump? It doesn't make sense to me based upon how it's wired... the input voltage to both motors is before the transformer with the switches AFTER the transformer before the lube pump. How does that work?

I am interested in option 3 you listed above... how would that work? just connect it to 1T1 and 1T2 for the two legs for 220v in the spindle motor box itself (just undo the plate and tie in?)

Well your looking at a 2.19 reduction on your incoming voltage (give it take). So if your imputing on H1&H2 240v then X1 to X2 should be around 110v. But are you asking if you measure X to ground/machine frame? But if you look at you transformer picture your not tied to X2. Your tied to x3 which says 115v with 208v input. That means your output is only reduced by a factor of 1.808. Which means with a 240v input you should be getting 132.7v. But with say 220v input you would get 121v. On your schematic it shows X2 or in your case X3 is tied to ground. So if you measure X1 to the frame of the machine you will measure full voltage. If you measure X2/X3 to machine your just measuring it to its self.
It’s quite common to run an isolation transformer between supply voltage and anything that a person could come in contact with. This way your limiting the current and not exposing components to full line potential. I would also say the wrong pump is installed.

Sorry I may have been confusing... the input voltage is high into my machine, so the measurements between H1 and H2 (input power into the transformer) is ~245v. When I got the machine it was originally connected X3 and X1 on the transformer output, which was giving me voltage that was too high at ~140v. So after looking at the diagram on the plate I decided to move the X3 over to X2 which now gives ~115v (high according to the plate, which should be 95v but it's what I'm needing so going w/ it).

On your schematic it shows X2 or in your case X3 is tied to ground. So if you measure X1 to the frame of the machine you will measure full voltage. If you measure X2/X3 to machine your just measuring it to its self.

Well the schematic says the transformer should be grounded 'if conditions permit' and I'm not sure it is grounded, how would I double check this?

So if you measure X1 to the frame of the machine you will measure full voltage. If you measure X2/X3 to machine your just measuring it to its self.

That makes total sense but I'm not understanding why I'm only picking up 7-8v when I check X1 to the the machine ground. My meter seems to be running fine in every other situation, wall plug or even L1 L2 and L3.

 

[JTknives]

You have a motor starting relay that are controlled by the output of the transformer through a switch. These relays also have overload current sensing so if the motor does not start turning it will trip. It’s a common magnetic motor starter. Your Oiler is connected straight to that 115v off the start switch. Look at PB-3 which should be your start switch. You push that and you send power to the Oiler and to the magnet on the relay.

 

[JTknives]

If it was me I would wire the pump to the output of the motor relay. But I would also make sure it’s wired to the 2 legs that are power from the panel not the generated ghost leg that’s made by the RPC.

 

[REK Knives]

Thanks JT.

So how would I go about "wiring the pump to the output of the motor relay"? The only wires coming out of the lube pump are 3 wires - black, white, and green. so if I wired up the black and white as the two 115v legs and the green to the ground, how would I also wire up the pump to the motor relay?

 

[Drew Riley]

JT pretty much covered it. For your 3 wires, the green will remain a ground, and the black and white each connect to any two legs on the output side of your contactor (relay) that give you ~220VAC.

 

[REK Knives]

JT pretty much covered it. For your 3 wires, the green will remain a ground, and the black and white each connect to any two legs on the output side of your contactor (relay) that give you ~220VAC.

Sorry if I'm not understanding, but can you tell me where exactly on the schematic that I would connect to get the 220v? And can I just connect to any two legs to get the power or will the 3 phase be an issue?

 

[JTknives]

You dont have 3 phase, you have a fake 3phase. A rotary phase converter does not convert single to 3 phase it uses the single phase 240v to generate a 3 leg that is out of please with the others. So you have single phase at your relay and an out of phase ghost leg. You need to take the white and black from the pump and connect it to this end of the motor relay. I would also look at your rotary phase converter and sort out which 2 wires coming out of it are the single phase. The generated leg will not be the same voltage as the others. It will always be different unless it’s balanced perfectly which is impossible unless thy do it with the load connected. So say you have L1,L2,L3 coming out of your phase converter. Measure from L1 to L2 it says 240v and L1 to L3 is 209 and L2 to L3 measures 212. This says L3 is the generated leg. I would then trace that to the relay and wire my pump to thoes terminals on the output side of that relay. This will be the same as wiring your pump to a 240v single phase source. But I don’t know your phase converter, do you have a schematic for that?

 

[REK Knives]

You dont have 3 phase, you have a fake 3phase. A rotary phase converter does not convert single to 3 phase it uses the single phase 240v to generate a 3 leg that is out of please with the others. So you have single phase at your relay and an out of phase ghost leg. You need to take the white and black from the pump and connect it to this end of the motor relay. I would also look at your rotary phase converter and sort out which 2 wires coming out of it are the single phase. The generated leg will not be the same voltage as the others. It will always be different unless it’s balanced perfectly which is impossible unless thy do it with the load connected. So say you have L1,L2,L3 coming out of your phase converter. Measure from L1 to L2 it says 240v and L1 to L3 is 209 and L2 to L3 measures 212. This says L3 is the generated leg. I would then trace that to the relay and wire my pump to thoes terminals on the output side of that relay. This will be the same as wiring your pump to a 240v single phase source. But I don’t know your phase converter, do you have a schematic for that?

thanks man, ok I'll go take a look and see if I can find exactly where to attach the pump wires. Your explanation is excellent, thank you!

Yeah I connected the generated leg to L3 because I was informed to make sure the generated leg does NOT connect to the lines that go to the controls. L1 and L2 seemed to do this so that's why I went w/ L3 for that leg.

I have a North America rotary phase converter, the PL-5.

 

[Drew Riley]

Sorry if I'm not understanding, but can you tell me where exactly on the schematic that I would connect to get the 220v? And can I just connect to any two legs to get the power or will the 3 phase be an issue?

I probably didn't word that as clearly as I should have, but once again, JT has it covered. I don't mean "ANY" two legs, but should have more clearly specified the two legs that tie back to your 2 single phase feeds into the RPC, which give you the 220VAC. Not to say it wouldn't run on "ANY" 2 of the 3 phases, but it's generally not a good practice to pull "single phase power" from your generated leg as it's usually not as balanced, unless you specifically tune it that way with capacitors and what not.

At any rate, make sure you leave yourself some notes in your schemes and other paper work to show where you changed the wiring. It'll help 10 years down the road when that pump goes out again, and you forget what the heck you did to make it work. I'd also make sure to clearly tag the wires.

 

[REK Knives]

OK big thanks to everyone for helping me on this!! You guys nailed it on the head!

But I also wanna give a huge shout out to Derek Stang for spending about an hour on the phone with me figuring this electrical wiring out.