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Anyone interested in making your own web pages?
- Thread starter geothorn
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Sure, Dreamweaver MX ready and raring to go.
Gollnick
Musical Director
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html was never intended to be actually written by people. This is literally true. Yes, people can learn to do it. But html was created with the intent that the actual html code would be written by programs and that people would compose their html pages using a graphic editor such as Microsoft's Front Page or Macromedia's Dreamweaver. Those are both pricey tools, of course, but they illustrate the sort of tools that the creators of html and the web envisioned. There are certainly less pricey tools available even unto freeware. The point here is that learning html is painful because it was not something that humans were intended to learn. So, don't take that route. Do what the creators of html and the web intended you to do: get a web authoring tool.
I know that someone is going to say that they learned html and they love it and that it's the only way to go. Fine. If it works for you, do it.
The human body really wan't intended to do this either:
But, some people insist that it's the way to go.
I know that someone is going to say that they learned html and they love it and that it's the only way to go. Fine. If it works for you, do it.
The human body really wan't intended to do this either:
But, some people insist that it's the way to go.
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I'm of the old school when it comes to web design. I like it as simple and functional as possible. The webpages I've had in the past were kinda like the Spyderco of the internet. Functional and easy to use and navigate, but ugly as flaming poo.
I don't like Front Page or Dreamweaver or any of those things. html is a pain in the ass, but when you make the kinds of pages I made, you just need the very basic code. Front Page and Dreamweaver just have too many features for me. My simple html vocabulary is more than sufficient to get by.
My pages consisted of little more than codes for backgrounds, font sizes, picture links, links and text. Very basic, but streamlined and pretty professional looking if I may say so. I've been thinking about putting together a new one to highlight some my knife restoration and modification projects I've been doing lately.
I don't like Front Page or Dreamweaver or any of those things. html is a pain in the ass, but when you make the kinds of pages I made, you just need the very basic code. Front Page and Dreamweaver just have too many features for me. My simple html vocabulary is more than sufficient to get by.
My pages consisted of little more than codes for backgrounds, font sizes, picture links, links and text. Very basic, but streamlined and pretty professional looking if I may say so. I've been thinking about putting together a new one to highlight some my knife restoration and modification projects I've been doing lately.
I'm afraid I come across the wrong way, Gollnick. I want to thank you for what you said, I was under an erronious assumption about HTML from what I had read on the Internet. Actually learning HTML was what I have seen the most. Now I understand that that is not the best way to go about writing web pages. I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't believe you or that you were wrong. I meant to say what you said made much more sense than all those tutorials that try to teach you HTML. I was just trying to say that is what I have seen the most, and so that is what I had figured was correct.
First off, I want to say that I don't wish to cause conflict, or otherwise "bump heads," but sometimes I get pushed into it. I'm surprised that Mr. Gollnick didn't mention that he's chosen Adobe PageMill 3.0 as the program he uses to make the HTML for his web site, The Balisong Collector's Page.
Mr. Gollnick appears to believe that humans were never meant to write their own HTML, and that they were always intended to use Adobe PageMill, Macromedia Dreamweaver, Microsoft FrontPage, etc. That's a fine contention, if you choose to believe it. Did the people/teams that wrote those above-named computer programs need to know HTML before they were chosen to work on making those programs...? Probably.
When I learned HTML, it was 1996, Internet Explorer 2 was arguably the most widespread Internet browser, versus Netscape Navigator 2, and Microsoft FrontPage Express came free, already installed upon my computer. I chose to learn HTML rather than to learn Microsoft FrontPage Express.
That, to me, is what this "debate" boils down to. One has the choice of learning HTML, or, one can choose to learn how to use an HTML-writing program. Both include time spent and brain cells stretched, one is free, if you have the necessary drive and determination, and the other costs money. Once you learn HTML you can sit down at any computer and write web pages, whereas if you learn how to use an HTML-writing program, you're basically stuck to using that HTML-writing program.
Can Mr. Gollnick write a web page without using his Adobe PageMill 3.0? I doubt it, but he'll have to chime-in with his response. Adobe PageMill 3.0 was apparently discontinued in 2000, so Mr. Gollnick is virtually stuck to using a program that was obsolete 6 years ago, unless he wants to purchase a new one, and, once again, learn how to use another one.
Unfortunately, too, if one only has knowledge of how to make web pages in, say, Macromedia's Dreamweaver, that knowledge doesn't transfer to using Adobe PageMill or Microsoft FrontPage. HTML is the basis of all of those programs, and if you know HTML, those programs can be unnecessary.
Before the HTML-writing computer programs came along, who wrote web pages then? People who didn't use HTML-writing programs. If we take Mr. Gollnick's opinion as the bottom line, then no one wrote web pages before they had HTML-writing programs. That is utterly false.
HTML-writing programs are a convenience, not a necessity. I haven't shelled-out any money for an HTML-writing program, I haven't had to learn how to use an HTML-writing program, and, subsequently, my web pages are not constrained, in any way, because of my use of an HTML-writing program.
Mr. Gollnick is correct, there are many freeware HTML Editors as well as freeware HTML WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) programs. You can find links to download both, at the previous link. If, after trying HTML, you decide that you'd prefer not to use it, or, it's too difficult for you to learn, the free Internet browser Mozilla includes Mozilla Composer, it's version of an HTML-writing program. No, it isn't as fully-featured/functioning as Microsoft's FrontPage, or Macromedia's Dreamweaver, but it has all of the basics of making a web page.
If you wish to learn HTML, there's probably no better place to do it than at the World Wide Web Consortium. If you wish to start along the path of learning HTML, here's the first step: a ten-minute guide to Getting started with HTML. All you need is a text editor on your computer, and, combined with HTML knowledge, skill and practice, you can make your own web pages without requiring a program to make your web pages for you.
I think that even Mr. Gollnick could benefit from the freedom that comes from knowing HTML, on one's own, without the necessary constraints inherent in using an HTML-writing program. If you learn all of the "rules" to writing good HTML, you aren't required to follow the arbitrary rules set by a computer program, that has it's own 'rules' for you to follow....
GeoThorn
Mr. Gollnick appears to believe that humans were never meant to write their own HTML, and that they were always intended to use Adobe PageMill, Macromedia Dreamweaver, Microsoft FrontPage, etc. That's a fine contention, if you choose to believe it. Did the people/teams that wrote those above-named computer programs need to know HTML before they were chosen to work on making those programs...? Probably.
When I learned HTML, it was 1996, Internet Explorer 2 was arguably the most widespread Internet browser, versus Netscape Navigator 2, and Microsoft FrontPage Express came free, already installed upon my computer. I chose to learn HTML rather than to learn Microsoft FrontPage Express.
That, to me, is what this "debate" boils down to. One has the choice of learning HTML, or, one can choose to learn how to use an HTML-writing program. Both include time spent and brain cells stretched, one is free, if you have the necessary drive and determination, and the other costs money. Once you learn HTML you can sit down at any computer and write web pages, whereas if you learn how to use an HTML-writing program, you're basically stuck to using that HTML-writing program.
Can Mr. Gollnick write a web page without using his Adobe PageMill 3.0? I doubt it, but he'll have to chime-in with his response. Adobe PageMill 3.0 was apparently discontinued in 2000, so Mr. Gollnick is virtually stuck to using a program that was obsolete 6 years ago, unless he wants to purchase a new one, and, once again, learn how to use another one.
Unfortunately, too, if one only has knowledge of how to make web pages in, say, Macromedia's Dreamweaver, that knowledge doesn't transfer to using Adobe PageMill or Microsoft FrontPage. HTML is the basis of all of those programs, and if you know HTML, those programs can be unnecessary.
Before the HTML-writing computer programs came along, who wrote web pages then? People who didn't use HTML-writing programs. If we take Mr. Gollnick's opinion as the bottom line, then no one wrote web pages before they had HTML-writing programs. That is utterly false.
HTML-writing programs are a convenience, not a necessity. I haven't shelled-out any money for an HTML-writing program, I haven't had to learn how to use an HTML-writing program, and, subsequently, my web pages are not constrained, in any way, because of my use of an HTML-writing program.
Mr. Gollnick is correct, there are many freeware HTML Editors as well as freeware HTML WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) programs. You can find links to download both, at the previous link. If, after trying HTML, you decide that you'd prefer not to use it, or, it's too difficult for you to learn, the free Internet browser Mozilla includes Mozilla Composer, it's version of an HTML-writing program. No, it isn't as fully-featured/functioning as Microsoft's FrontPage, or Macromedia's Dreamweaver, but it has all of the basics of making a web page.
If you wish to learn HTML, there's probably no better place to do it than at the World Wide Web Consortium. If you wish to start along the path of learning HTML, here's the first step: a ten-minute guide to Getting started with HTML. All you need is a text editor on your computer, and, combined with HTML knowledge, skill and practice, you can make your own web pages without requiring a program to make your web pages for you.
I think that even Mr. Gollnick could benefit from the freedom that comes from knowing HTML, on one's own, without the necessary constraints inherent in using an HTML-writing program. If you learn all of the "rules" to writing good HTML, you aren't required to follow the arbitrary rules set by a computer program, that has it's own 'rules' for you to follow....
GeoThorn
I used to do webpages years ago, learnt largely by examining HTML code from various webpages. I used a HTML editor for speed and effectiveness, but could have just written the code. Did a couple pages for for money too. I was the table master. Can't remeber almost any of it anymore. What the web has developed into now, I don't think writing code is the smartest way to go anymore. Some do it, and it's fine, but I don't see it very effective for any larger projects.
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Gollnick never said that it was necessary to use an HTML writing program. He simply said the original purpose of the language was to have programs to automate writing them. I have no way to prove either one of you are correct, his idea seems to make more sense because I doubt the creators of HTML wanted to make something they couldn't profit from.
Now, I leared HTML from free sites on the internet, it took me a while to learn but i got pretty good at it. Then I learned Adobe Go Live and it took me minutes to figure out how to do all the things I wanted. And there are more features in there that I never even got around to exploring.
But honestly, anyone with any type of computer experience can figure out a program like Go Live, Dreamweaver, or frontpage with great ease. Windows programs are all very similar, it takes minutes for an experienced computer user to figure out the basic functions and obtain results immediately. Much faster then learning all the code yourself.
Now, I leared HTML from free sites on the internet, it took me a while to learn but i got pretty good at it. Then I learned Adobe Go Live and it took me minutes to figure out how to do all the things I wanted. And there are more features in there that I never even got around to exploring.
But honestly, anyone with any type of computer experience can figure out a program like Go Live, Dreamweaver, or frontpage with great ease. Windows programs are all very similar, it takes minutes for an experienced computer user to figure out the basic functions and obtain results immediately. Much faster then learning all the code yourself.
Gollnick
Musical Director
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- Mar 22, 1999
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- 29,258
I didn't mention Pagemill simply because it is discontinued so you can't buy it anymore. Why should I tempt someone with it if they can't actually buy it? As recall, it was something like $39.95 when I bought it and it was a darn good buy, IMHO. I still use it because it gets the job done for me. I'm pretty handy in Frontpage too, but I've never bought it for personal use because it is expensive.
There are inexpensive and even free web authoring programs available.
I did not say that it is impossible for a person to learn html. Indeed, I said exactly the opposite, that there are people who do and who create websites that way. I can stumble through I myself. Pagemill has a "raw" mode in which it allows you to edit the actual html with only a little help, key word completion, pairing, syntax checking, etc. Pagemill has a few little deficiencies where I find it most expeditious to switch to raw mode and just do it myself... of course, I have a bachelors degree in computer engineering so I am versed in computer programming all the way down to and including machine code.
I did not say that learning html and creating websites that way is impossible. But, I have, over the years, learned several dozen computer languages, from Fortran to Ada to C (though I have to confess to never really having got the ++ stuff really in-hand since I'm fundamentally a bit twiddler and that ++ stuff is about much higher abstractions). I've learned about a half-dozen different machine languages, assembly languages too. I know two different mark-up langages. I've actually written compilers. I'm professionally-fluent in two hardware description languages. And I'm here to tell you from that experience and also from having been around and read the articles about html when it was introduced, that it is not an easy language to learn and that it was originally intended that most people would create html documents and web pages using tools such as Frontpage, Pagemill, Dreamweaver, or any of the low-cost and even freeware tools.
There are always people who insist on doing things the hard way... often just to prove that they can do it. If you are one of those people, fine, don't let me stop you, go to it. The html spec is online. Download it. Read it. Study it. Use your notepad editor. Go to it.
But if your goal is to get a webpage up and running, functional and looking good, and you don't want to dedicate months of your time to it, then get a tool.
There are inexpensive and even free web authoring programs available.
I did not say that it is impossible for a person to learn html. Indeed, I said exactly the opposite, that there are people who do and who create websites that way. I can stumble through I myself. Pagemill has a "raw" mode in which it allows you to edit the actual html with only a little help, key word completion, pairing, syntax checking, etc. Pagemill has a few little deficiencies where I find it most expeditious to switch to raw mode and just do it myself... of course, I have a bachelors degree in computer engineering so I am versed in computer programming all the way down to and including machine code.
I did not say that learning html and creating websites that way is impossible. But, I have, over the years, learned several dozen computer languages, from Fortran to Ada to C (though I have to confess to never really having got the ++ stuff really in-hand since I'm fundamentally a bit twiddler and that ++ stuff is about much higher abstractions). I've learned about a half-dozen different machine languages, assembly languages too. I know two different mark-up langages. I've actually written compilers. I'm professionally-fluent in two hardware description languages. And I'm here to tell you from that experience and also from having been around and read the articles about html when it was introduced, that it is not an easy language to learn and that it was originally intended that most people would create html documents and web pages using tools such as Frontpage, Pagemill, Dreamweaver, or any of the low-cost and even freeware tools.
There are always people who insist on doing things the hard way... often just to prove that they can do it. If you are one of those people, fine, don't let me stop you, go to it. The html spec is online. Download it. Read it. Study it. Use your notepad editor. Go to it.
But if your goal is to get a webpage up and running, functional and looking good, and you don't want to dedicate months of your time to it, then get a tool.
Adobe GoLive CS2, apparently the most recent successor to Adobe PageMill 3.0, is priced at $399, and it, too, will take time to learn to make good, professional-looking web pages. Then comes the next update, you'll have to pay for, and have to learn most of, again.
HTML might be "the hard way" to make web pages, but I contend that it's worth it. Yes, you could go and buy Adobe GoLive CS2, learn to use it, and love it to death, or, you can discover that you can't learn how to use it. Thankfully, Adobe has a GoLive CS2 "tryout" that you can download and install upon your computer, free, to use for thirty-days. I doubt that someone can learn how to make great web pages with it, in that thirty-days, but you can buy it, on day 31, and continue learning.
At least HTML is free to learn, at your own pace, and if you decide that you can't manage it, there are still many free web page making tools available.
GeoThorn
HTML might be "the hard way" to make web pages, but I contend that it's worth it. Yes, you could go and buy Adobe GoLive CS2, learn to use it, and love it to death, or, you can discover that you can't learn how to use it. Thankfully, Adobe has a GoLive CS2 "tryout" that you can download and install upon your computer, free, to use for thirty-days. I doubt that someone can learn how to make great web pages with it, in that thirty-days, but you can buy it, on day 31, and continue learning.
At least HTML is free to learn, at your own pace, and if you decide that you can't manage it, there are still many free web page making tools available.
GeoThorn
Sorry that I've taken so long to reply.Terry Newton said:
Time is relative. Depending upon how you decide to go, writing your own HTML or paying someone to make your web site for you, that could make a huge difference in the time it takes to get a web site set up and running. The time necessary to maintain a site also relative. If you are making, say, a memorial web site, for a friend, family member, or family pet, there probably isn't too much "maintaining" that needs to be done. If you'll be managing a grocery store's web site, that advertises it's weekly specials online, then it'll need a lot of site maintenance.
So, basically, the time needed depends upon what kind of a web site that you wish to set up and maintain, and/or if you'll pay someone to do everything for you.
GeoThorn
I want to thank Mr. Gollnick for hijacking my thread.
You are obviously not interested in helping others to make web pages. You are instead a shill for the companies that make HTML-writing programs. Therefore, you shouldn't have even replied to this thread. Mr. cosine will probably not return to this thread because of your heavy-handed statements that will likely force him into becoming a slave to an HTML-writing program. Like you.
Do you like relying on a HTML-writing program that was declared obsolete six years ago? Do you enjoy being in a position to stick with a six-year-old HTML-writing program, or buying a new one, without any choices in between? You apparently must.
There are thousands of people with free web sites at Yahoo!GeoCities, that create and edit their web sites with the Yahoo!GeoCities' free PageBuilder program. What Yahoo!GeoCities fails to tell those people, making their web sites with PageBuilder, is that they are permanently stuck hosting their web pages at Yahoo!GeoCities because PageBuilder-made web pages are not compatible anywhere else on the Internet but Yahoo!GeoCities.
I'm trying to offer people the freedom to express themselves, whereas you are trying to talk them into becoming slaves to a computer program. It's my belief that freedom is better than slavery....
GeoThorn
You are obviously not interested in helping others to make web pages. You are instead a shill for the companies that make HTML-writing programs. Therefore, you shouldn't have even replied to this thread. Mr. cosine will probably not return to this thread because of your heavy-handed statements that will likely force him into becoming a slave to an HTML-writing program. Like you.
Do you like relying on a HTML-writing program that was declared obsolete six years ago? Do you enjoy being in a position to stick with a six-year-old HTML-writing program, or buying a new one, without any choices in between? You apparently must.
There are thousands of people with free web sites at Yahoo!GeoCities, that create and edit their web sites with the Yahoo!GeoCities' free PageBuilder program. What Yahoo!GeoCities fails to tell those people, making their web sites with PageBuilder, is that they are permanently stuck hosting their web pages at Yahoo!GeoCities because PageBuilder-made web pages are not compatible anywhere else on the Internet but Yahoo!GeoCities.
I'm trying to offer people the freedom to express themselves, whereas you are trying to talk them into becoming slaves to a computer program. It's my belief that freedom is better than slavery....
GeoThorn
- Joined
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- 10,027
Geothorn, does everything have to be an argument for you?
Chuck was merely giving his opinion about HTML and the easy way to do it. Take it for what its worth. Pagemill et al works for him, and many other people as well. You prefer to do it the old fashioned way, and apparently are willing to teach some people the way to do it. I'd like to see how to do HTML as well, just for my own curiosity.
Now, drop the hyperbole, and answer the people who responded to your original question.
Chuck was merely giving his opinion about HTML and the easy way to do it. Take it for what its worth. Pagemill et al works for him, and many other people as well. You prefer to do it the old fashioned way, and apparently are willing to teach some people the way to do it. I'd like to see how to do HTML as well, just for my own curiosity.
Now, drop the hyperbole, and answer the people who responded to your original question.
Um, I don't mean to intrude, but...
I basically typed up a website out of the textbook for a general computers class two semesters back, but it was a poorly written textbook and horribly frustrating.
I suppose I would be willing to put up a website if I thought that there was a remote chance of someone actually looking at it. And if I had a digital camera.
I basically typed up a website out of the textbook for a general computers class two semesters back, but it was a poorly written textbook and horribly frustrating.
I suppose I would be willing to put up a website if I thought that there was a remote chance of someone actually looking at it. And if I had a digital camera.
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