Anyone interested in making your own web pages?

[geothorn]

Geothorn, does everything have to be an argument for you?

I don't think so. I usually only argue about things that I feel strongly about, and are worth fighting for. If something I believe in is being disrespected, I'll stand up for it.

Chuck was merely giving his opinion about HTML and the easy way to do it. Take it for what its worth.

I believe that I took it for what it was worth. Suggesting that making web pages with HTML was something akin to learning to become a contortionist seems a bit "over the top" to me.

Sure, HTML was most likely designed so that it could be used to create programs, in order to make money, as are most things. However, if you buy one of those programs, you can be locked-into it, unable to change brands because you'd have to learn another HTML-writing program, all over again. I've never had to buy a string of products and been locked-into buying the upgrades for the same product, but better and newer versions.

That's one bonus to HTML. I can use the same rudimentary HTML that I learned in 1996, and it works for all Internet browsers, today, as it did back then. HTML is "backwards compatible" all the way back to virtually the start of the World Wide Web, unlike most/if not all computer programs.

Pagemill et al works for him, and many other people as well.

That's my point. Mr. Gollnick has apparently already made his choice for making web pages, so, why didn't he limit his reply to what he uses to make web pages, why he uses it, and how he chose it, rather than knocking having a knowledge of HTML? He obviously has chosen to buy an HTML-writing program, and that choice is fine for him. I started this thread to offer another choice, the choice I made. Mr. Gollnick can start his own thread touting the benefits of PageMill, rather than hijacking a thread of mine.

Yes, I probably should've watched this thread and/or been more specific in my initial post, so that my offering to help people to learn HTML was apparent, so that Mr. Gollnick would've known that "knocking" HTML would be hijacking the thread. In that, I take full responsibility.

You prefer to do it the old fashioned way, and apparently are willing to teach some people the way to do it. I'd like to see how to do HTML as well, just for my own curiosity.

That's good. I really enjoy writing my own HTML. It's nice to have total control over a web page, and most HTML-writing programs take some of that away.

Back in the ancient history (in computing) of 1996, I learned how to make web pages by looking at web pages' source codes, like Way-O, and trying to duplicate them, myself. I've made web pages of knives, commentary, and even an online "interactive" instruction manual for Windows95. One can make large scale sites using HTML by creating a "template," that is, a basic web page with the scripts, backgrounds, text colors, tables, etc. that are common to all of the pages, and adding each page's contents into that template, as you go along, making pages.

That ten-minute Getting Started with HTML is a really good starting place, and, if you don't get it, at first, I'd keep trying. You'll be able to grasp more of it, the more you attempt to use it. Then, as you get better, you can move along to the Advanced HTML tutorial. Really, if you discover that you enjoy learning HTML, and making your own web pages, it's a self-rewarding process.

I'm offering my help in diagnosing your HTML/web page problems and difficulties along the way. I spent about four years hanging around in the Yahoo!GeoCities Help Chat, helping to troubleshoot HTML web pages, and correcting coding mistakes.

GeoThorn

 

[geothorn]

I basically typed up a website out of the textbook for a general computers class two semesters back, but it was a poorly written textbook and horribly frustrating.

Unfortunately, HTML can be frustrating.

I'm probably weird, but back when I was learning HTML, I'd try making web pages on my computer that matched web pages online, everything from the text color, indenting, font type, etc. I always made certain to give credit to the author or authors whose work I was using to attempt duplicating, however, as plagiarism is a bad thing.

I suppose I would be willing to put up a website if I thought that there was a remote chance of someone actually looking at it.

I always encourage people to make web pages about things that they think and feel strongly about, and, in that way, people who share those interests will find them, through running Internet searches. If you're making web pages about the things that matter to you, then you'll put your energy and enthusiasm into them, and that's contagious. In fact, a part of learning HTML is learning how to place keywords in your web pages that make it easier for the Internet search engines to find your web pages/site.

Remaking a few textbook pages into web pages would seem a topic that has every opportunity to be dry as dust.

And if I had a digital camera.

There you go. You can make a web page list of the Top Ten reasons that you want or need a digital camera.

There are many places online where you can download free web page images, and, until you get your digital camera, you can use the images that are free, usually by giving credit for the image(s) and a link to the site where you found them.

GeoThorn

 

[geothorn]

I'm still here, geothorn. It would take quite a bit of work to chase me away.

Cool. Have you checked-out the ten minute Getting started with HTML tutorial? Are you having any difficulties with understanding it? There are a lot of HTML rules and "tags" to learn, and it can sometimes become confusing.

One great thing about knowing HTML is that you can format web pages as you like. With a good knowledge of HTML, you can become your own version of Microsoft Word, that is, you're choosing your own font, font size, font color, background image or background color, whether to have music, have images, have tables, and you can even create Internet "activity faker".... Don't watch the "activity faker" too long, as it's boring.

The web page possibilities using your own HTML knowledge are indeed almost endless.

GeoThorn

 

[cosine]

I'm reading those tutorials as I get the time. Thanks.

 

[geothorn]

I'm reading those tutorials as I get the time. Thanks.

I hope that it's going well. It isn't too difficult if you feel rewarded for trying to do it. One tip I could suggest is to make a list of the HTML "tags," as you learn them, in a text file, so that you can easily copy~paste them into web pages, as you write them.

Here's an ancient web page from 1997 that helps people choose the colors that they want to use for their web pages' text, link, and background colors (BGCOLOR): Text, Link, and BGCOLOR Comparisons.

This may be the place for me to insert a warning for those with epilepsy. No, I don't believe that the above linked web page will cause an epileptic attack, but, well, it can freak your eyes out, if you aren't forewarned.

GeoThorn

 

[Knife Outlet]

I make my living from e-commerce so I do websites as a business - not for other people but for my own businesses. I've been doing so for about 8 years now. I can code html but I rarely do and, when I do, it is just to edit something Dreamweaver did. I often have to look up the code in a reference manual because I use it so seldom I forget.

One of the problems is that the majority of a website these days uses code from other "languages" that have sprung up from and around html. I mean ASP, php, perl, Java and so forth. So learning html may have some minor benefit but I would call it minor. I tend to agree with Gollnick. I would recommend buying a good website development program and learning how to use it. Then you can study the code to make minor edits if that is your desire.

The tricky thing, of course, is not to put up a web site. That's easy. The tricky thing is to attract people to it. That is very, very difficult. We spend about 80% of our web site time doing that and about 20% maintaining the web sites. Our largest site attracts about 3500 visitors per day which translates into about 1.5 million "hits" per month as they define that term. Getting there has been an incredibly difficult job and has taken years - literally.

Go get a web site development program and have some fun. Don't sweat the small stuff or the details. Take care.

 

[geothorn]

I make my living from e-commerce so I do websites as a business - not for other people but for my own businesses. I've been doing so for about 8 years now. I can code html but I rarely do and, when I do, it is just to edit something Dreamweaver did. I often have to look up the code in a reference manual because I use it so seldom I forget.

If you didn't have a fundamental background knowledge in HTML, how would you know that you needed to edit something that Dreamweaver did...? If someone doesn't know any HTML, how would they edit a mistake that their $399 program made...or, how would they even know that their HTML-writing program had made a mistake? Maybe they'll just cross their fingers and wish, really hard? Or, maybe they'll pay for someone else to edit it for them...?

Money solves everything, hunh? Except for a lack of money.

One of the problems is that the majority of a website these days uses code from other "languages" that have sprung up from and around html. I mean ASP, php, perl, Java and so forth. So learning html may have some minor benefit but I would call it minor. I tend to agree with Gollnick. I would recommend buying a good website development program and learning how to use it. Then you can study the code to make minor edits if that is your desire.

Where did you see anything in my posts that state that I'd be helping them with HTML for a business web site? You didn't.

You apparently started using Dreamweaver with a basis in HTML knowledge, rather than buying Dreamweaver and then learning HTML, right? So, you're recommending that people skip learning HTML, and just jump into using an HTML-writing program...? Isn't that a betrayal of the way that you actually started making web pages...?

The tricky thing, of course, is not to put up a web site. That's easy. The tricky thing is to attract people to it. That is very, very difficult. We spend about 80% of our web site time doing that and about 20% maintaining the web sites. Our largest site attracts about 3500 visitors per day which translates into about 1.5 million "hits" per month as they define that term. Getting there has been an incredibly difficult job and has taken years - literally.

Not putting up a web site is extremely easy...do nothing, and you still haven't put up a web site. Most people reading this thread, and having an interest in this thread, likely haven't made a web page, let alone a web site. Therefore, the first "tricky thing" is to learn how to make a web page, then comes the tricky part of advertising it. If you can't manage to make a web page or web site, worrying about advertising it is putting the cart before the horse.

Go get a web site development program and have some fun. Don't sweat the small stuff or the details. Take care.

I appreciate Knife Outlet's comments in this thread, and I believe that he means what he says, as I have no reason to doubt him, nor his veracity. However, he's suggesting shelling-out $399 to purchase an HTML-writing program, stating that any knowledge of HTML is of minor benefit, and unnecessary, despite his having a knowledge of HTML before he bought Dreamweaver.

Although I appreciate Knife Outlet's comments, I don't think that he's being as honest with you as he could be. First, Knife Outlet learned some HTML, then he went to Dreamweaver. If you go to Dreamweaver without knowing HTML, how can you either recognize or correct Dreamweaver's mistakes...?

GeoThorn

 

[Cougar Allen]

This is cracking me up. Geothorn, nobody is arguing with you. You're misinterpreting everything you see and making it into an argument.

 

[geothorn]

I'm glad this thread is cracking you up...and sad that you're so easily entertained.

Let's see what Knife Outlet has to say about whether knowing HTML made his learning of Dreamweaver easier. Let's see how easy he thinks it would be to learn Dreamweaver without some background in HTML.

Not as easy as he's letting on, I promise you.

Ever made a web page, Cougar Allen? Then you must have some interest in learning HTML, otherwise, you wouldn't be reading this thread, you'd be out spending $400 on a computer program that you may or may not be able to learn how to use.

GeoThorn

 

[TNRat]

I could care less about HTML, whatever in the blazes that might be. I just wanted to know how a layman with substandard brain cells might use to throw together a site, which I suspect is what the majority of people are doing out there since I suspect few people know what HTML stands for.

That is okay, though, since I have long decided it is far too anal a project for me to take on. Thanks anyway.

 

[Cougar Allen]

I'm glad this thread is cracking you up...and sad that you're so easily entertained.

Let's see what Knife Outlet has to say about whether knowing HTML made his learning of Dreamweaver easier. Let's see how easy he thinks it would be to learn Dreamweaver without some background in HTML.

Not as easy as he's letting on, I promise you.

Ever made a web page, Cougar Allen? Then you must have some interest in learning HTML, otherwise, you wouldn't be reading this thread, you'd be out spending $400 on a computer program that you may or may not be able to learn how to use.

GeoThorn

Indeed, I was hoping to learn a little html to use when I post on forums and blogs where I can't use vBulletin code, but in between your claims that everyone who likes to use a program is being dishonest, all programs cost $400, etc., you have posted very little actual information about html ... so far....

 

[cockroachfarm]

Well, I *was* interested but not any more. I get lectured enough at home.

 

[cosine]

Well, don't jump on geothorn all at once, guys. Let me finish milking him for all his html links so that I don't have to search for them myself.

 

[Andrew Taylor]

I started on Netscape Composer and it was free as part of Netscape Navigator Suite. After that I used Dreamweaver UltraDev4 and now Dreamweaver MX at about 40% or less of its potential. I only edit code if Dreamweaver marks something in red in 'Code View'. I am still learning, but I have edited and maintained sites for people and created a few myself. Always willing to learn more though from people cleverer than me.

 

[Andrew Taylor]

Cosine

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/

 

[cosine]

Cosine

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/

Thanks.

 

[Knife Outlet]

Geothorn, I'm not sure why you react to my comments as though I'm attacking you. I have no problem with people learning and using html. I just think that it is unnecessary for anybody other than a pro. If someone is interested and wants to learn something new, I sure wouldn't criticize that. I fuss with web sites every day. I guess, in that sense, I am a pro but I rarely use html. I use ASP code a little more but not that often either. It is easier just to paste something into an html development program and work away. Hand coding is expensive because it is time consuming. I always avoid it if I can.

I need to use it sometimes to do things like interface with credit card or UPS gateways or create special database searches. Dreamweaver doesn't know anything about interfacing to gateways and has no knowledge of how our databases are organized. Most amateurs don't need to write interface code for their website gateways. And, when I compose this kind of code I do it with my most commonly used html editor - Dreamweaver.

I'm not suggesting anybody buy Dreamweaver either. Actually, I think it is a poorly designed program and pretty hard to use. I only use it because it deals with multiuser website development pretty well and my partner fusses with the sites as well. Yes, it's pretty powerful too in the Ultra Dev version. But there are all kinds of site development programs. I have one called Front Page that was included with my Microsoft Suite and I use it for ebay auctions because it does text editing so much easier than Dreamweaver. I think most people could put together a useful website with Front Page after spending some practice time with it. It is fairly intuitive if you understand how web sites are constructed. I think there are even some shareware programs available. It doesn't take an investment in Dreamweaver to develop a web site, as you know.

And, no, I don't think a knowledge of html coding is necessary to use these programs. Helpful on rare occasions, perhaps, but not really necessary, particulary if someone isn't using a database driven web site.

The fact that I agree with Gollnick isn't a criticism of you or your interest in teaching html. It is just that I agree with him. Nothing pesonal. Take care.

 

[geothorn]

It is fairly intuitive if you understand how web sites are constructed.

Ok. How did you learn how web sites and web pages were constructed? Did Dreamweaver teach you that, or was it the HTML you learned, before you purchased Dreamweaver...?

I feel that there are many people who have assimilated their HTML knowledge into making web pages and web sites, seamlessly, and that they don't fully credit their HTML knowledge with anything. I haven't ever approached a HTML-writing program without my HTML knowledge already existing, so I haven't any idea how daunting an HTML-writing program can possibly be to someone without any HTML knowledge.

If you had no HTML knowledge, how would you know that Dreamweaver had made an HTML mistake? If you had no HTML knowledge, how would you edit a Dreamweaver web page, to correct the Dreamweaver coding? Those questions have yet to be answered by you.

I'm sorry if you feel that my first response to you was somehow a reaction to your "attacking" me. Despite the moderators contention that I find arguments everywhere, it isn't really true. You took one side of the argument, I took another. That's all it is.

GeoThorn

 

[Ken C.]

Lock down is imminent if the behavior in this thread doesn't get better. Keep it up with the bickering back and forth and it will be closed.

 

[geothorn]

Lock down is imminent if the behavior in this thread doesn't get better. Keep it up with the bickering back and forth and it will be closed.

Please, show me the "bickering" you allege? Any name-calling, and/or otherwise below-the-belt behavior...? I must've missed those posts....

GeoThorn