Anyone know California Property Law?

B

bunghole

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Jul 6, 2005
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I have a neighbor directly behind me and there is a high retaining wall since his property stands higher than mine. I painted the wall on my side. He can't see it. However, he is now claiming that the wall sits on his property and I had no right to paint it and he wants the paint removed (even though he can't see it).

Common sense says that the neighbor is a dickhead, but the law might say that he has the right to force me to remove the paint.

Anyone know the answer?
 
First, I'm not a lawyer, but I do have a little bit of experience in litigation with several property issues, including oil & gas, insurance, and ownership disputes.

Assuming that he's right about the property line, I recommend stopping by your local government city/county office and asking to speak to someone about the issue.

But what if he's not correct about the property line? You need to find out if the wall, and specifically the painted face of the wall, is actually on his property. Knowing for yourself where the exact property line is (and not just taking his word for it) is the next step if you want to fight him over it. Finding out will likely determine the outcome of the dispute.

I can't know another man's mind, but if he believes that he owns the wall, he probably doesn't care nearly as much about the paint as he cares about someone coming onto his property and painting something that they didn't own.

In the end, offering an apology and removing the paint might be cheaper than paying for a surveyor to mark the property lines. And once that's done, you might get some bad news and be forced to comply and remove the paint anyway.
 
Thanks and that's a good point. However, isn't the onus on him to prove that the wall lies on his property and wouldn't he have to hire the surveyor before any court would judge in his favor?
 
Knowledge is power, finding out where the property line is will determine that pretty quickly.
 
I know you're looking for a cheerleader or someone to pop up and say that this guy is wrong.

I strongly recommend you don't talk about what a judge will do or won't do. Don't ever mention lawyers or even the law.

You don't want to take this to court, It's a simple matter of a few hundred dollars right now, but if you start talking about putting it in front of a judge, and he lawyers up and wins, it could turn into $10,000 or more really quick.

He'll sue you for the cost of removal, he'll sue you for attorney's fees, he'll rack up expert and surveyor bills and sue you for those costs, too.

His lawyer could hire an expert who will claim that your actions caused irreversible harm to the retaining wall and in the event of a bad El Nino cycle, this man's property could erode and lose value.

Keep it between yourselves and find a fast resolution.

As I see it, you have three choices:

1) offer a compromise - Maybe he'd prefer a different color? Cut down a tree that's blocking his view? Offer to mow his lawn as an apology?

2) Hire a contractor to remove the paint.

or 3) Tell this man that you will remove the paint as long as an independent surveyor determines that the painted side of the wall is in fact on his property. Tell him it has nothing to do with trust, it's just you thought it was on your property and you need to find out for sure.
 
As you may realize, this may open a huge can of worms. Check your documents. There should be a diagram of your property. There is usually a marker that shows one corner of your lot with measurements
to the borders. See if you can find it before doing anything else. You may be surprised at what you find.

We had a neighbor in LA who claimed that half of our driveway was on his property and wanted it removed. My dad did some checking and found that our property was actually 3 feet into what the neighbor thought
was his. The neighbors fence was on our lot. :D My dad, being a nice guy, let it go.
 
had that issue before - we just installed a wood fence that sat flush against the neighbor's block fence; he couldn't say crap :)
 
You don't want to take this to court, It's a simple matter of a few hundred dollars right now, but if you start talking about putting it in front of a judge, and he lawyers up and wins, it could turn into $10,000 or more really quick.
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY correct.

Apologize and ask him if he wants you to repaint or remove.

Don't even mention the property line. Just preserve good relations with your neighbor.

Wait a few months for this to blow over and then have a survey done. If your neighbor asks, tell him that him that you just want to be sure that you make no further mistakes. if you think you can get away with it, say, "Survey? Hmmm. Oh, you know?, I think the water district said something about working on the pipes or something. I'm sure it's no big deal." If the survey finds that the wall is on your property, do not say a word until you come back here and we'll formulate a strategy.
 
Any idea on what a survey would run me? It's a small property 40' by 84'. Also, unless the surveyor needs access to his property, he probably wouldn't even notice since the wall is about 15 ft high.

And thanks for all the advice.
 
I SUSPECT that such a Cadaster survey would cost a few hundred dollars. It can probably be done with DGPS, differential GPS. Such a survey would take only maybe a couple of hours.

GPS is only good to plus/minus a few feet; this is good enough for navigation, but not for determining which side of a property line a fence is on. DGPS uses a GPS receiver physically mounted at a well-known, fixed point, often a cellphone tower. The location of that receiver is known to within an inch. That receiver will calculate the difference between where it KNOWS that it is and where GPS currently says that it is and transmit that difference -- often (and conveniently) via cell phone -- to DGPS-equipped receivers. They can then apply that difference to where GPS is currently telling them that they are and they can correct their own location to within a couple of inches.

(The FAA, Coast Guard, and several other agencies operate publically-accessible, free-to-use DGPS base stations, but here are less than 100 of them and they are concentrated around airports and critical waterways. The further you get from the base station, the less accurate DGPS fixes are. So, these government-provided DGPS base stations are of limited usefulness. As a result, several private companies operate commmercial DGPS base stations in most major cities in the US. Access is by subscription and is not cheap. Well, it is cheap if you are a surveyor and this capability lets you perform your work so much easier and faster.)
 
I was thinking. (Always a dangerous thing) Who put up the block wall and how long ago? If the block wall is right on the property line and half is on your side, that side belongs to you and you cane do anything you want with it. For instance, if a neighbors fruit tree has branches that hang into your yard, any fruit on those branches belong to you. Likewise, you can trim those branches any way you want.

One question. Does your neighbor have proof that the wall is on his property? Have you seen it?
 
If your property or his has changed ownership in the past twenty years or so, a current plat should be on file. It will indicate survey markers, distances and angles. With that you should be able to do your own cursory survey to answer your questions. Common markers are (FIP) an iron pin driven into the ground near the curb and possibly on all four corners of the property.

Also, if the block wall was built in recent history, there should be a record of the building permit on file. If it was built without a permit, he might just have to remove it and possibly also pay a fine for construction without a permit.
 
Can your neighbor prove that YOU painted the wall? Can he prove that the wall is on his property? Has he suffered actual damages? Just ignore him.
 
People, what matters here is not the law of property but the principles of good neighorship. What is at stake here is a few hundred dollars and it's not worth bickering over with your neighbor.

Go to him and say, "Wally, I'm sorry that I painted the wall without consulting you. That was thoughtless and inconsiderate of me." Notice that all you have conceeded to here is thoughtlessness and inconsideration, but these have no monetary value; you have given nothing but you've appeased him quite a bit. Go on, "As a token of appology, I want to give you this 12-pack of your favorite beer." You called his wife to find out what kind. This is 12 bottles of beer; you're not giving up much... and he'll probably give you one back which is why you bring the beer ice-cold and have a church key in your pocket. Go on, "Now, Wally, what do you want me to do about the wall? I can repaint it a mutually-selected color. I brought the color chip brochure along with me. Or I can get it stripped back to bare?"

Then, a few months later after the whole thing has blown over, then get the survey done quietly.

If the survey shows the wall is on his side, say no more. If you still can't stand to look at the wall, plant some arborvitae on your side of the line.

And if the survey does show the wall on your side, then first speak to a real estate attorney. He will lay out some options to solve the problem. Solve it you must because once you know of it, you can actually end up loosing your land. When it comes time, approach your neighbor humbly. Don't mention the painting argument. Say, "Wally, my neighbor and friend, I was looking at refinancing my house and the bank insisted on a survey; they said that there are some problems in our area. They discovered that the retaining wall is actually on my property. At the bank's suggestion I spoke with an attorney, Hugh Lewy Dewy at Dewy, Cheatem, and Howe, he sketched out some options. I know you'll want to talk this over with your attorney. Here is a copy of the survey report and Mr. Dewy's suggestions. Why don't you and your charming bride come over for barbecue dinner next Saturday, sixish, and we can talk about this then?"
 
I would agree with Mr. Gollnick except for one thing. The neighbor fired the first shot by demanding that the paint be removed. I believe that a reasonable person would just ignore something that he
he can't see. It appears from the OP's opening statement said neighbor is not a reasonable person and we don't know how well the OP gets along with the neighbor or if he even has regular contact
with him.

It appears to me that the only way to resolve this is to find out for sure who's property the wall is on.

You might want to look at this. http://realestate.findlaw.com/neighbors/le15_6top.html
 
...Or you could just kill him and take over his property.:D.:D.
 
Thanks again to all for all of the suggestions.

I've done some more research on the property and it has been owned since it was built in 1969 by a trust under an older gentleman. I am guessing that the person that contacted me is the son and may not even be a trustee, so the problem may solve itself if he doesn't have the authority to pursue the matter. As far as neighbor relations go, I don't know the person that contacted me, but he appears to be a bit strange. The property is overgrown and has derelict cars on it. He keeps a chain across the driveway that says beware of dog and there is no clear entryway to the front door of the property. I wouldn't be comfortable trying to go to his door. Also, since I've lived there (5 years), he has always kept a ladder against the wall that borders my property and there has always been a ladder to the roof of his 2 story property. The ladder on the wall doesn't hang into my property as far as I know, but it's a bit creepy as he can look down into my yard and into my living room.

I'm normally a very respectful neighbor. When I found out that the painter got some paint on another neighbors car, I was horrified and immediately wrote a check to have the exterior of his car detailed and buffed out. There is just something about this guy with the wall that has me worked up. I'm not looking for cheerleaders, just advice. I have the tax assessor's map that shows that the property line is 80 feet from the front of the property. When I have some time, I am going to try to measure it just to see if it might be obvious. If he continues to pursue the matter, I will have the property surveyed.

By the way, the way he contacted me was to climb his ladder and talk to me while I was in my yard playing with my 2 year old son. That upsets me too. I consider my son as sacred to me and a stranger looking down on him bothers me. Probably an over-reaction, but it is what it is.
 
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