Anyone using Fein saws?

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Anyone here using Fein saw blades to make knives from, or use then to cut steel? If you are using them for blades, what is the preferred method of tempering? They are 1/16" thick by 16" long Z22-7HSS. I am certain that they are not bi-metal as they will shatter or snap when hit with a wrench.

(Edited by moderator to remove non-forum content)

I am considering trying to sandwich a section of this steel into a blade as an experiment, I also considered attempting a forgeweld on 3-4 of them to make a solid billet, but will have to see what dad has going on as he is the blacksmith, lol.

Or is it really a waste of time to try to use the HSS for blades without knowing the exact alloy?
 
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Also cleaned off a section of the blade looking for the tell-tale joining line normally present between the cutting edge and the body of the blade, there was none.
 
I think you are wasting your time trying to forge weld HSS together.
As far as the blades go, I never saw any advantage of trying to take a saw blade and make a knife from it. A piece of knife steel would be a better choice.

Moderation:
Try and keep offers of trades, swaps, and sales out of Shop Talk. There is a section in The Exchange for those discussions
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I was a bit brusk in the response with hickman1.

I have had some PM discussion with him, and know a bit more about his intent.

The below info is for educational purposes only, and I do not recomend forging a knife from a HSS saw blade. One can be ground from a hardened blade, but the resulting knife will be mediocre at best.
Just to make myself clear, I think using a known steel, and making a good knife, is always a better choice than guessing at what the steel is and trying to make a so-so knife.



OK, here is the info hickman1 wanted.

HSS saw blades are complex-carbide forming steels with hyper-eutectiod high alloy chemistry. The steel is made to attain high hardness and be able to work in the temperature range of 900°F without being ruined. The trade-off is that steel is brittle.

HSS will not forge weld under normal welding techniques. It may be possible to do a canister weld, but the make-up of HSS will produce a really poor laminate, if it even works ( doubtful). This would be a very complex weld and drawing operation, as the steel is air hardening and extremely brittle, as well as very hot hard.

The only working technique option most knife makers have with HSS saw blades is to grind one out in the hardened condition.

One reason I try and avoid giving the this info on the forums is that years from now, someone will post that they made a knife following "Stacy's instructions" and it was a crappy knife. They fail to remember that I said it would most likely not make a good knife, and was advising against it.

Most power hacksaw blades are some type of HSS. The model number on this blade would indicate that it is HSS. You can guess that it is M42, M2, or similar steel a far as HT, but that is only a guess. This will require a HT oven with 2200°F capability.

People often make a simple bench knife from HSS saw blades by tempering them down and grinding them in the hardened state. The results may vary greatly, but this would be how to give it a try:
Bake in your kitchen oven at 500°F for two hours, quench in room temp water, bake for two more hours, then quench in water again. This should make the blade less prone to snapping, but the edge may still be a bit chippy if ground at too acute an angle. An included angle of 30° is about as low as you want to go.

Do the grinding with fresh belts, go slow, dip in water every few passes to prevent getting too hot. Sharpen on a bench stone, or DMT plate.
Trying to heat treat HSS without knowing the exact steel makeup is going to be a total crap shoot, but if you assume it will have a regimen similar to M42, use that as a starting point.

Here is the info on M42 and the HT data:

Typical Chemistry
Carbon 1.08%
Manganese 0.30%
Chromium 3.75%
Vanadium 1.15%
Silicon 0.30%
Tungsten 1.60%
Molybdenum 9.50%
Cobalt 8.00%
Sulfur 0.03% max.

Typical Applications
Broaches Gear Hobs
Drills Milling Cutters
End Mills Reamers
Form Tools Shaper Cutters




Annealed Hardness: BHN 235/255.

Machinability in the annealed condition is approximately 35% of W1 Tool Steel (1%C).

Thermal Treatments

Critical Temperature: 1560F(850C)

Forging: 2025-2075F(1105-1135C) Do not forge below 1700F(930C). Slow cool.

Annealing: 1600F(870C), hold 2 hours, slow cool 30F(15C)/hr max. to 1000F(540C), then air or furnace cool. Hardness BHN 235/255.

Stress-relieving (After machining): 1100-1300F(595-740C), hold 2 hrs., then air or furnace cool.

Straightening: Best done warm 400-800F(200-430C)

Hardening: (Salt, vacuum, or atmosphere).

Preheat: 1500-1550F(820-845C), equalize. A second preheat stage at 1850-1900F(1010-1040C) suggested for vacuum or atmosphere hardening.

High Heat: 2075-2175F(1135-1190C). Standard recommendation to achieve HRC 66/68 is to use 2150-2175F(1175-1190C).


Quench: Salt, oil or atmosphere quench to 1000-1100F(540-595C), equalize, then air cool to below 125F(50C) or hand warm. Vacuum or atmosphere quench rate through 1850-1300F(1010-705C) range is critical to achieve optimum heat treat response.

Temper: 1000F(540C) minimum recommended. Triple tempering required.

Stress-relieving (Hardened parts): Temper 30F(15C) below original tempering temperature or 1000F(540C) minimum.


Toughness
Lowering the hardening temperature (underhardening) reduces the grain size and increases toughness
 
Stacy, I appreciate the info and, as stated in my latest pm to you, I believe I'll shy away from using these for bladestock for the time being. I did ask a couple of pertinent questions in that pm as well if you have a chance to look over them and get back to me, I'd appreciate it.

From the info you provided I find that these saw blades will likely be a waste of time to try to turn into knife blades of a caliber that I'd be comfortable with.

I thank you.

Phil
 
Update:
Well, I finally got a belt sander (1"x30") from HF, and some good belts from tru-grit, it took a while even with Norton Blaze 60 grit belts, but I did put a nice convex edge on one of these blades. After playing around with it for a while I am pleasantly surprised, I sliced up 12 empty soda cases into little bitty pieces, and did some light chopping on some 2x4's, have not noticed any dulling and have had no chipping or breakage issues, even without any tempering down. I'm planning to put a rudimentary handle on this one and use the hell out of it doing the insulation in my shop to see how the edge holding fares against fiberglass batt insulation and kraft paper. If it does well, it will go offshore with me as a working knife and I'll see how it does with cutting PVC cable jackets and some light aluminum armor... Actually, I'll make another blade for that as the blade length on this one is really too long to take out there with me, lol.
 
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In my humble opinion HSS makes excellent knives. for a cutting/slicing knife that will not see much abuse HSS is the best. I made a couple knives from a starrett power hacksaw blade and they were great, just do like Stacy says, temper back a little if you can and grind hard. The problem I had was that they were really to thin at about 1/16". as for forging and heat treating forget about it it will not work
 
Many older saws are L-6 and used to be highly sought after by knife makers. Like old crosscut saws. I’m told by steel suppliers the modern duplicate of the L-6 is not the same. I found L-6 rusted to easily but is a good work knife steel. I’ve used tungsten industrial hacksaw type blades. Slow grind not removing original temper. It is still best I think to work with knife steel of a known exact composition for consistent results. Especially if forging and or laminating with other metals. It is interesting to play around, experiment, and learn, so for these reasons is not a waste of time. That’s my two cents worth anyhow.
 
Oh, by no means am I advocating the change over to using these instead of a good quality known steel, I was originally curious as to how they would work if used to make a knife, from my own very limited experience they seem to do pretty good. I plan to make up a couple of bird and trout pattern knives from another one of these and see how they do for light fieldwork, camping, skinning, etc. My step-father, my brothers- in- law, all of my friends, and myself all enjoy hunting so I'll get an un-biased opinion on them this fall with luck... I may even splurge on some 1084 to try out too :). I really have too many irons in the fire with work, setting up my shop, moving all of my reloading gear and supplies into it, as well as keeping up with the homeplace, I had a forge body built at work, and have had the KAOwool for over a month and have not had the oportunity to line my forge, and still need to buy or build a burner for it as well. Then add in the fact that it is stoopid hot here right now... was 107 deg on my front porch yesterday @ 3pm.
 
Man, I made hundreds of knives out of power hacksaw blades.
I had thousands of them in my shop in Nigeria.

They weren't great, but they were free.

I used to give them to the nationals for free.
Gifts, bribes, that sort of thing.

I really got a kick out of it the first time I was out on a platform in the Atlantic, looked down at a fisherman, and saw that he had one, and was using it!
I'm not talking about a guy fishing for sport either, I'm talking a guy trying to feed the family, in a homemade boat, miles off shore.

It was cool.

Grind em to shape, make a duct tape handle, and sharpen...
 
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