Apex Ultra Optimum Heat Treat?

Bill niles said:
I agree 100%. But with out the proper equipment I kinda fly by the seat of my pants. I don't sell the knives I make, I give them to friends, kitchen knives in the matsumoto style. It's a hobby not a job. Something to enjoy. And 0 complaints.
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The title of the thread is “ApexUltra optimum heat treat?”.

I’ve never met a knife maker that says he has a bad heat treatment.

People get mesmerized by the fire and the smoke therefore it must be a good heat treatment.

Do the best you can with what you have but don’t think you have a good heat treatment.

Hoss
 
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Hopefully the article will cover on the "cryo vs none" result... because many makers usually skip cryogenic on this kind of steel since the stress from oil quenching are already high and further freeze treatment would add up the risk of cracking.
 
shqxk said:
Hopefully the article will cover on the "cryo vs none" result... because many makers usually skip cryogenic on this kind of steel since the stress from oil quenching are already high and further freeze treatment would add up the risk of cracking.
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Like with other high carbon low alloy steels, cryo raises hardness by 0.5-1 Rc. If you want the extra hardness then use the cryo and if you don't want it then don't use the cryo.
 
Larrin said:
Like with other high carbon low alloy steels, cryo raises hardness by 0.5-1 Rc. If you want the extra hardness then use the cryo and if you don't want it then don't use the cryo.
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According to your 52100 article, there is almost 15-20% different in toughness on cryo vs none at most range of austenitizing up to 50% when using the higher end austenitizing temp. So if Apex Ultra going to behave like that I would skip cryo for sure.

toughness-vs-austenitize-52100.jpg
 
shqxk said:
According to your 52100 article, there is almost 15-20% different in toughness on cryo vs none at most range of austenitizing up to 50% when using the higher end austenitizing temp. So if Apex Ultra going to behave like that I would skip cryo for sure.

toughness-vs-austenitize-52100.jpg
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Toughness behavior is perhaps better represented by a log scale, so 25 vs 30 ft-lbs is much smaller than 5 vs 10 ft-lbs, for example.
 
DevinT said:
The title of the thread is “ApexUltra optimum heat treat?”.

I’ve never met a knife maker that says he has a bad heat treatment.

People get mesmerized by the fire and the smoke therefore it must be a good heat treatment.

Do the best you can with what you have but don’t think you have a good heat treatment.

Hoss
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Just had the blade tested at metal craft. 2 dimples 64 and 63.7.
 
shqxk said:
According to your 52100 article, there is almost 15-20% different in toughness on cryo vs none at most range of austenitizing up to 50% when using the higher end austenitizing temp. So if Apex Ultra going to behave like that I would skip cryo for sure.

toughness-vs-austenitize-52100.jpg
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That seems to make a lot of sense (if I understand it correctly). Getting up to that temp where the toughness drops sharply with cryo, I'm guessing that's where the martensite start, and finish start to really drop. I'm guessing there's probably a lit of carbon in solution, and the main reason the toughness isn't really as effected with the non cryo at that temp, is because of the retained austinite, but I'm sure that the hardness will be much lower, than the sample that got cryo at that temp.

That's just my guess. Either way, that just shows the importance of not going too hot.
 
Bill niles said:
Are you trying to say I shouldn't buy this product, and leave it for those with more experience. But how would I learn. I'm 70 years old and time is running out.
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Never too late to start, glad you have gotten the interest, good job getting some hardness testing too. It will definitely be worth your time to learn more about metallurgy as well.

While it can feel defeating not having all the equipment, acquiring that equipment will certainly help you enjoy the experience more and get closer to achieving what's possible for the performance of the steel.

Without the equipment just understand there will be limitations which isn't the end of the world, but one problem is when you run into problems, it will be more difficult to put your finger on it without equipment that makes proper "numbers" to quantify things to find the "leak" in the system.

Just do what you can, be humble and have fun. Also Hoss is correct, it is a common misconception about having "0 customer complaints" being a metric of a good heat treatment.

So, welcome aboard, don't feel left out, there is a lot of good information people can share here, it may come across as curt but the information should be taken objectively, not personally.
 
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