Apology to Busse Combat

I am so sorry for the Forum I posted. I meant no disrespect to either Busse Combat or JSP. I Also posted a formal apology in the JSP Forum. I was just trying to get educated feedback on a very hard choice I have to make. But it is my choice to make and I shouldn't have stepped on any toes in the process. To Jim and Everyone at Busse Combat I am very sorry. I will continue my research privately. Thank you Andy for teaching me a valuable lesson about conduct and procedure on the blade forums. Once again I apologize to all Makers/Mfgrs and fans of Busse Combat and Jsp I offended.

Respectfully, Keith Gilbert (Ryu)
 
Why was the question shut down??? It was a very valid question and should have been left open as that's what this board is all about.

This strikes me as unfair business practice using the power of a moderator to shut it down if you do not like the question or it might raise some controversy.

I was under the impression Busse thought they were the best but question somthing about them and sombody they have a working relationship with and WATCH OUT!!!!!

Without asking the hard questions how are we to know what is the best buy for or money?????

PS....just for the record I do own a Busse



[This message has been edited by Shrike9 (edited 02-27-2000).]
 
Keith,

I don't think you've done anything wrong and I don't think the tread closure was intended to silence competition. In my limited exposure to Busse knives, their marketing and business ethics are without equal. They do not try to stifle competitors, in fact they appear to welcome them. Their product line sells because it is what they say and more. Also keep in mind that Andy is new to the moderating job and has to make "executive" decisions on the spot. It was his call and that is his priviledge. I do think, however, that the question belongs in the general discussion forum under the Knife Reviews and Testing category. That way, both knife brands are in neutral territory. Good luck in your search for the perfect steel.
 
I agree, it's a perfectly good question for the General forum. (Not for the Reviews and Testing forum, though a review or test of either or both would be appropriate there.)

-Cougar :{)
 
I have only given a few directives to Andy as to how I want this forum moderated. The primary directive is to keep it nice and friendly. If we spot a thread that seems like it might become unfriendly towards another maker or manufacturer, then we shut it down. Andy felt that this thread could get heated and shut it down before it went the wrong way. We do not compare with other manufacturers unless we are directly challenged by that manufacturer.

Anyone who has followed the slightest amount of our advertising will note that we do not shy away from a worthy challenge. However, you will be hard pressed to find any mention of the identity of our "nearest overall competitor", even after our name had been attacked by our competitor. We consider it to be ungentleman-like behavior and try to avoid unecessary confrontational situations of this nature whenever possible.

We are more than willing to not only state what our knives are capable of, but offer video and live demonstrations whenever possible. It is our way of taking the "hype" out of our claims. I hope this explains our position more clearly and we are very glad that all who participte in our forum do so on a regular basis. Thanks for your attention.

Jerry Busse
 
Welcome to the forums Ryu!!!!

Please don't be sorry for your post! I just went and read it and I don't see anything wrong with it. I, like the others, strongly suggest that you post the same question in the "General Forum". It is a legitimate question and you deserve an answer!

I do not own any JSP knives, but I can tell you from experience that Busse knives, IMO, are second to none! They are just awesome in every way!!! Then there is the wonderful warranty! IMHO, you could never go wrong with a Busse. As far as JSP knives go.....Well let's just say I am as interested as yourself in finding out more about them....Especially if they are even close to being as tough as a Busse!

Good luck and please consider re-posting in the General Forum! Take care!!!

[This message has been edited by GeneL74 (edited 02-27-2000).]
 
I'm glad this seems to be resolved. I have already been in private e-mail communication with Keith/Ryu, and we are cool as far as I am concerned. He has conducted himself as a gentleman in response to my closing THAT PARTICULAR THREAD, where others might have felt moved to behave otherwise. I am all the more encouraged to help him.

Jerry articulated my intent best and I am glad we can move along.



------------------
Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa & Mastercard Accepted

Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives and Big East Traditional Bows

Professional Shooting Svcs: Corporate Training and Stress Mgmt.

Busse Combat Variant Temp. HQ http://home.earthlink.net/~gregrnamin/andy/sharper.htm

Sharper Instinct Website www.sharperinstinct.com
 
I think you guys are missing the point here. i don't think andy shut down my forum out of fear of a negative comparison with JSP. He did so because the two companies respect one another. Some of you guys have children out there. Look at it this way. How would you feel if someone asked the question... which one is a better father? You or your best friend? Though you'd be confident in your own skills you just wouldn't want the contest at all because it would just be wrong and out of place. I am going to go about this the way anyone who is searching for knowledge should. through careful study and research. That, more than anything will bring me closer to the sword of my dreams. Thnaks ya'll but let's close this conversation here and now.
 
Sorry, Ryu, I don't agree at all. Further, I think the issue is important.
First, I have no doubt that Andy and Jerry had and have no fear that the Busse knives would look bad in comparison. I'm sure the Busses would do well in any comparison and that Jerry and Andy aren't afraid of any fair comparison or test. That's a gimme. But that's not the point. It's probably because they know their knives would do well or be praised that the problem arose in the first place.
The original question was whether Brand A or Brand B has some superior characteristic quality [or hypothetically would have]. That is a perfectly legitimate question and topic for discussion. It doesn't matter that Brand A and Brand B are associated or related companies. That's a commercial consideration not related to the substance or the merits of the question. If a forumite wants to know or consider the qualities or characteristics of a design or product, the commercial arrangements or questions of comity between the makers are not germaine to the issue, even if it is distasteful to the personal or commercial interests of the moderator or interests related to him. With respect, a moderator cannot and should not close a thread because an inquiry invites a comparison between knives made by two sister companies. Would a consumer's group refuse to compare two cars because they're both made by the same company or by related companies? Of course not. That's an important matter of principle that reflects on the integrity of the Forum.
And by saying that, I'm not questioning the integrity of Andy or Jerry. Anyone who's read my posts knows I think their integrity is beyond reproach. But, with respect, they're wrong here.
Jerry's point, if I understood it correctly, that he would like to head off bad feelings before they start, is perfectly consistent with good faith on his part, which I would presume anyway. A real gentleman, he wouldn't dream of making someone he deals with look bad and he doesn't want to be seen to be using the Forum for self promotion at the expense of a colleague. That's probably Andy's motivation too. Those motives are admirable, but they are misplaced and mistaken in this context. Neither Jerry nor Andy as moderators are responsible for the opinions expressed on the thread or even for the nature of the inquiries or speculations made. So if someone says something unkind about another maker, even in comparison to a Busse knife, that statement doesn't have the implicit endorsement of Mr Busse or Mr Prisco just because they were moderators or didn't close the thread. Moreover, it isn't their function to censor opinions on that basis. Anyone who would criticize Andy or Jerry for not closing the thread would be out of line and unreasonable for doing so.
If I am wrong and the rules of this forum now permit a moderator to close a thread because it might contain an opinion which might be prejudicial or embarrassing to the moderator commercially, although otherwise legitimate, I'd like to know.
Sure, there are limits to everything. Noone would expect a moderator to sit by and permit defamation, or abusive posts, or for an old, sore wound to be reopened. This inquiry, however, was not in that category and would be an entirely different kind of precedent. A very bad one. I return again to the example of a consumer's group refusing to compare two cars made by related companies. A fair comparison should be permitted, and if one of the companies doesn't like it, grow up and welcome to the free marketplace of ideas and products and opinions.
One last point. Once a post is out there, it's fair game for everyone, even if the original author thinks the better of it.
Having said that, the original post was pretty pointless and I wouldn't give it a second's thought.
 
The only suggestion I would make is in the future move the topic to the general forum instead of deleting it.

-Cliff
 
I believe that Andy was perfectly in his right to close the thread. We have all seen what can happen when a "this knife vs. that knife" thread is started, especially in the forums of that particular knife or its competitor. Andy may have been trying to prevent another flare up similar to the infamous "Busse vs. Mad Dog" threads. In addition, hot topics like this are sometimes started in forums like this by trolls. The phrasing of the question was just a bit too general that it could be taken either way; either as a serious attempt to learn more about a product in comparison to another which the member has experience with and can use as a benchmark, or as a juvenile attempt at starting a "hot" thread.

However, Andy, you could have handled the reply a little better. This is where "people skills" come into play, and it is obvious that you need a little more time and experience. But we musn't be overly critical. I'm sure we have all made similar mistakes before, often times without even realising it. Perhaps a better response might have been to explain that such threads cannot be answered objectively if it is discussed in that particular manufacturer's forum, that it would probably find less biased responses in the general discussion forum with more replies from users of both brands of cutlery, and then to move the thread there. Also, the explaination of the close working ties between Busse and JSP would probably not be amiss.

Ryu, threads like that would have been better started in neutral territory like the general forum. Also, it would be better to ask about specific models which are similar. We all know that blade designs/ materials/ heat treatments/ etc. perform better in certain combinations. There is no be-all-end-all to knife designs, so a broad range question might not be able to generate the replies you were hoping for. Information could also have been obtained by the member through private research of past discussions and reviews.
 
The suggestion that posts of the sort at issue should be made in a general forum strikes me as a sensible and satisfactory solution, provided it is confined to difficult cases and is not used as a facilatator or excuse for restricting reasonable and open debate in the more specialized forums. As always, good faith and good judgement must inform and animate principle.
 
I think it also depends on how the initial question is asked whether or not a flame war may erupt.

For example, someone might simply ask "which is better, knife X or knife Y?". The question is rather vague on exactly what kind of information the poster is trying to derive from an answer. Nobody can ascertain the actual intent of the question, so biased opinions start flying.

If, however, someone asked something specific, such as, "the finger grooves on the handle of knife X seem more pronounced than the govves on knife Y, are they comfortable when used for hard chores, or would the smoother handle of knife Y give a more comfortable grip, at the expense of control when used around water, oil, and blood while skinning a deer?" Now you know exactly in what context the person is framing the question, the poster's proposed use for the knife, and therefore how to answer the question with a specific answer.

I think that gaining specificity is something that can be learned (or taught) by reading these forums, and how some of the more experiences members frame their questions to ask for certain information.

I hope this made any sort of sense.

------------------
Don LeHue

Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings...they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
 
I agree with Cliff here. An acceptable compromise would be to move the topic to the general discussion forum.

I didn't see any REAL pressing need to delete or move the thread. However, I can see how it might make Busse a little uncomfortable(not because they have anything to hide of course). So as a matter of courtesy, I wouldn't have a problem with the thread being moved.

------------------
Yeah! Drop the chalupa...
 
Back
Top