Appeal/Durability of Blade Finishes?

[Kevin Jones]

We have recently seen some discussion regarding the durability and maintenance requirements of damascus steels spread over several threads, so I though it worthwhile enough a topic for further discussion without taking other threads "off topic".

It's actually a much larger topic than just damascus blades as JoeP pointed out in his post addressing his appreciation of mirror polished blades.
I have quoted some previous posts to perhaps act as starting points in getting the discussion started.

I would especially like to discuss and perhaps learn more about laminated and coated blades and the maintenance/durability of each. I posted very nice examples of each below. What are some other blade finishes/types which warrant discussion?

Makers/collectors, are there any blade types or finishes you will not offer or purchase due to maintenance/durability issues?

Also, what blade types/finishes appeal to you and/or appall you?

IMO, blade finish durability is very important subject no matter whether an ultra expensive safe queen, valued hunting companion or a daily user.

Inherent in owning handforged knives, which tend to lean to carbon steels, especially Damascus, is a high degree of maintenance is required. Keep in mind the Damascus pattern comes from putting acid on the blade to bring out the pattern.

Damascus is great looking but I would prefer a lower maintenance (and priced) steel.

I'm seeing some possibly alarming quotes here.

Simply, damascus is MUCH easier to take care of than straight, hand rubbed carbon steel. Damascus has an etched surface in 95%+ of the applications it is used in, and this acts much like gun bluing in protecting the surface, IN ADDITION the "hills and valleys" formed by the etching take and hold rust preventative solvents(Ren wax, Butcher's wax, RustFree, Tuf-Cloth....) much more aggressively.

The ONLY thing that I have found to be perfect for carbon blades is the physical and chemical isolation provided by a VCI product like Brownell's Gunwrap

The second post in a few days referring to damascus being difficult to maintain and or being susceptible to rust/spotting. Simply, not true if we are addressing quality damascus. Actually, ease of maintenance and reduced risk of rust are reasons why I prefer damascus blades over rubbed carbon steel.

Kevin I agree that damascus is less likely to rust than a sanded carbon steel blade and can make an excellent user. The only concern I have with using my damascus stuff is that I do not care how deep the etch is with repeated clean ups over the years and even heavy sheath ware you will lighten the etch. Scratches are also very hard to cover up and blend in. This is why I am still a fan of a mirror polish on a user I know they are not that popular these days but I have found this finish on a hard use or hard carried blades to work the best for me. As long as I can't hang a nail on a scratch I can usually buff out any damage to the finish. I agree that damascus makes an excellent user and as long as you do not care about the etch slowly fading and not being able to buff out scratches it is the most interesting and beautiful of blades to carry. For me it was never a rust issue. My only concern with rust is returning a blade to the sheath with organics on it sap , blood , fat etc. and contaminating the sheath which will promote rust on any knife. So the smoother the finish the better I can wipe it off in the field. I tend to be kinda anal so I love being able to carry a blade for years and with care keep it looking like new. See ya at blade brother looking forward to spending some time.

As always, I thank you in advance for your views, opinions and just following of this thread.

 

[JParanee]

As a kid growing up I broke bent and generally beat up alot of stuff so I learned to work on stuff because my anal nature kinda forces me to. So on a knife I like a finish that I can touch up myself. It is my nature to take care of my things I abuse them but I am big on maintenence. If I shoot a gun I clean it if I ding the wood on a stock I steam it out and refinish the stock or touch it up. I have a double rifle that that I carried alot in Africa and I wore the blueing off the barrels where your hand goes when you are carrying a rifle without a sling I have kept it this way to remind me of the long sweaty hours carrying it and every now and then I even think about having the barrels reblued. As a kid I started a friendship with a gunsmith who is a true craftsman he has taught me alot about touching up guns and I have been fortunate enough to know enough bladesmiths that have passed on tips and tricks about cleaning up and refinishing knives. I do not abuse my equipement and if I fall with a gun I have taught myself to protect my weapon the same goes for knives. Some people like the wear on a knife or a gun I just have a hard time looking at scratches and scuffs. Believe me I use my stuff I am just a big maintenance freak and I have to live with that.
Here are my thoughts on blade finishes and steels.

Stainless no matter what finish :thumbdn:

Hand Rubbed probale my favorite in the looks department but the worst from a user stand point very hard to keep looking good unless it is a take down knife and you can touch it and see it rust . I have a Dean El Diablo lovely knife great finish but before P Long made a deerskin lined sheath for it just pulling it in and out of the sheath gave it shiney spots or marks

Sanded blades are the same as a hand rubbed to me just finished with a lower grit they have the same pifalls of a handrubbed especialy with rust but are a bit easier to touch up.

Coated blades look great but after use they look bad all coatings will wear off in time.

Damascus if the etch is deep so that you can feel the pattern these wear very well but like I mentioned above eventually the etch will fade and scratches are hard to fix or blend. Unless the knife can be broken down and refinished. Spot etching will work but is a pain in the ass and sometimes never really matches up well.

Mirror polish cleans up the best resists rust the best and I can restore the finish the easiest of them all. It might not look the best but these are my expierences.

My comments are just my opinion and only apply to knives that will be used or carried fairly hard. I have had to clean animals far from a clean up source and blood fat and tallow especially when it is cold stick to a blade something fierce and I have used sanded blades that even doing my best to clean them in the field have rusted with in a few hours. So now you now why my tastes lend themselves to very roughly finished knives that I can resand myself or mirror polish that I can buff myself.
See all this time it wasn't just bad taste

 

[RogerP]

Coated blades look great but after use they look bad all coatings will wear off in time.

Dan Farr has an RJ Martin black powder coated folder that he uses as his shop knife and has done for years. You can tell it has been used (just as you could, I suggest, on any knife that has seen that much use) - but the coating most assuredly has NOT rubbed off.

Now, will it wear off "in time"? Well, time is technically endless, so that doesn't provide a meaningful point of debate. But the durability that the coating on that knife has displayed through years of hard use satisfies me that wearing off is simple a non-isssue. I can't speak for all powder coated knives, of course, but Dan learned how from RJ, so my confidence level is pretty high where his stuff is concerned.

This type of finish holds a lot of appeal for me on a using knife where you want to be ablde to use it hard, but don't want to HAVE to give it the degree of care and attention that a carbon steel using blade generally demands.

The downside - if you consider this such on a using knife - is that it can't be touched up or refinished to look like "new". Whether that purely aesthetic tradeoff in favor of superior corrosion and staining resistance is a valid one is a matter of choice for the individual purchaser.

Now as for it "looking bad" - no comment - your subjective opinion in this regard is just that.

Roger

 

[Doug C]

Sorry for the not quite Coop image, pic was from the seller.
Uwe Hoffman Ranger, picked this up shortly after joining here.
Blade finish is Kal-Gard. Uwe was in a '98 Tactical Knives mag the seller sent me along with the knife.

Doug

 

[JParanee]

Roger like I said at the end of my post it is only my opinion based on my experience. As for a coating on a folder I would imagine it would hold up better than a large fixed blade that is being put to more stress. Jerry Busse does a pretty durable coating and all one has to do is go on the Busse Forum and see the finish on the knives that get really used. I have not tried the coating you speak of but I have tried many very durable coatings on firearms and in time even holster wear wears off the coatings so I can not imagine a blade would fair much better. Again this is just my expierence with coated blades

 

[moonwilson]

I used to strongly dislike coatings, but I'm coming to accept and appreciate them on some knives. For me, coatings are most appropriate on hard-use, fixed blades with carbon steel.
Coating a carbon blade makes sense, because corrosion can be a problem. And I've found that under extended, hard use, most powder coatings will wear smooth long before they wear "off".

The main problem I have with coatings is that often makers use them to cover up shoddy grinds. When you strip the coating from some knives, often what you find underneath is not so pretty. On a working knife, this isn't a big deal- but it's something to consider. I don't like coatings on my folders, because I like my folders to be pretty. Invariably, a coated folder will end up beaten up and nasty looking before too long.

The best coating I've encountered lately is the stuff RAT Cutlery is using. Extremely tough stuff, that. Busse's coatings are good as well. And so is whatever Ka-Bar is using on their larger fixed blades (like the Kukri and the Cutlass).

 

[RogerP]

Joe - yes, I appreciate you are relating your experience. I am relating my experience, which is different.

I'm not sure where the additional stress on a larger blade enters into the issue of wear. Surely that is a function of abbrasion of the blade surface - friction, rather than impact. In this regard, I see no real difference in terms of likely surface wear resistance as between a large and small blade.

But I have seen Dan's large powder coated field knife, which has also seen extensive use, though not over nearly as long a period of time as his RJ Martin folder. The signs of use are pretty similar - and Dan does not by any means baby his knives - they "really get used", too.

Based on this experience, I would have little to no concern about the blade finish actually wearing off. Of course, I have no experience with Busse knives and offer no comment on that score.

Dan will likely have his used powder-coated knife at Blade - you should check it out if you have the chance and form your own opinion as to the degree of visible wear as compared with the degree of actual use.

Roger

 

[JParanee]

This is splitting hairs but coatings also add friction and since my only concern with knives, firearms, cars, bikes and well hell everything is performance coatings also cause drag. How many comp knives you see with coatings ?

 

[JParanee]

Roger I will definately check it out thanks and I look forward to meeting you

 

[Kevin Jones]

I really like the looks of a well laid down hand rubbed finish as well, however as Joe I find it hard to maintain. And the higher the grit/finner the finish the more scratches and handling marks usually show.

I also like a good mirror polish on a good steel as well. Very durable and easy to touch up on a buffer, however years of touch-up will play hell with your crisp grind lines.

I'm a damascus "nut" for quite a few reasons. Among them is it's ease of maintenance and resistance to rust/spotting. Years of use can wear the etch, however that depends a great deal on the steel, the damascus make-up and the knifemakers etch process and experience with making damascus. I have seen some which you could almost wipe the pattern off with your finger or with a little polish, and others you would have to work like hell to take it off with a grinding belt.

As far as blade coatings, I like the look on most pieces I have seen. My experience with coatings is limited to the construction field where it's used quite a bit on decorative panels and such. Holds up well to the elements, not quite as well to friction. 3M makes some very durable coatings, however most are vinyl based. Seems in this age we would have an indestructible coating/shield for blades.

I would to see laminates addressed here. I like the look of those on most blades I have seen.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

The best coatings/finishes are PVD coatings like DLC. Everything else, especially a paint on finish will wear, typically where the edge meets the paint first. Stick a coated knife in a dirty kydex sheath and it will wear before your eyes. Since PVD is measured in microns it won't cause any drag. Its best applied to a known steel as it gets pretty hot (900 degrees F).

Polished steel or polished damascus make excellent, practical blade finishes. Hand rubbed is average at best but sure does look good.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

DLC looks pretty good, but I don't like coated blades at all. I like the look of steel.

 

[Kohai999]

Anthony's post just about mirrors my feelings perfectly.

Roger, I HAD(past tense) an R.J. Martin powdercoated Havoc...it is now heat colored titanium and DLC coating on the blade....totally custom finishes

I scratched the living crap out of the powdercoat finish....maybe I am harder on my gear than Dan.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[EdgarFigaro]

Something I'd heard from a maker that he'd used on one of his damascus blades (I don't remember who it was) was to give it a real deep etch. Then it received a coating, and then was sanded back to hit the high points. Which would give it a real durable contrast as it wasn't just some oxide that could wear off.

Beau Erwin

 

[Lorien]

hey Joe, I really liked your first post:thumbup:

I have zero experience with pattern welded steel, but I really like the looks of it and the potentially decreased maintenance it could have which was already noted.

As for carbon steel, a super smooth finish is my preference, but that hand rubbed, (sanded) finish is aesthetically appealing imo. I especially like the patina my knives take on with use- not to be confused with pitting, which sucks. I can always remove it if I feel like having a shiny knife

The 'san mai' stainless/carbon thing is totally awesome I just burn for a knife made in that way.

Coated blades freak me out. I don't like them, mostly for the reasons Joe mentioned. But I try to keep an open mind, and can understand the reasoning behind using coatings for some knives. It's just that there is no added structural integrity. If a coating doesn't add strength, I feel it's mostly superfluous.

Sand blasted steel actually brings out a visceral reaction in me. How could anyone do that to a carbon steel knife? On a chromium steel, ok, de-animating sentries and whatnot. But on carbon? C'mon!

My blades are either really small for day to day work, or really big, for trail work. For both, (cut me some slack for limited experience in using all the great steels available now) a smooth/mirror finish on a carbon steel is how I roll. I'm not cutting into animals or dropping my knife in the ocean, and I'm a maintainer by disposition. But my knives get wet when I'm in the field and stay that way sometimes until the next day depending on how tired I am. For that, I am totally into the rough finish or stainless laminate.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Interesting that we have only heard from collectors

I was hoping to hear from makers as to which blade types/finishes they prefer and why and perhaps to address durability of finishes.

Purveyors, are there some blades/finishes you prefer or find more problematic from a sales perspective?

 

[Kyle Royer]

This is only my opinion from the last four years, since when I've started making knives.

I like damascus for a user because it doesn't rust easy and when it does it is easy to clean up with a little 1200 grit paper. Another thing I like about damascus is if it gets a scratch it is easily taken out.
Damascus doesn't rust easily because half the blade (the 1080) is covered in a kind of black oxidation from the etch IMO. Also if you salt blue your damascus and hit the high spots (the 15N20) off, the damascus will have more contrast and the low half of the damascus (the 1080) will be almost impervious to rust. It is easier for me to take scratches out because half the blade (the 1080) is etched/relieved which makes it easy to touch up with sandpaper since there is only half the surface area to touch up.

If you want a very very hard user I use a 320 grit finish because it is easy to clean up a blade with a little rust on it or with a scratch from using it. Otherwise I like a 600 to 1500 grit finish on a plain carbon knife. A 600 grit finish works very well for a user also.

Again this is only my opinion. I have not been making knives very long yet so I am not totally set in my ways.

Thanks for starting this great thread Kevin!

 

[Mike Turner]

I am pretty much a new maker just been dabbling in this for a few years now and I am a damascus nut I love the making it and find it very easy to maintain. The very first knife I made was a damascus knife which I gave to my dad he uses it all the time, well the oxide was starting to wear a bit but the topography was still there so I instructed him to clean the blade well and with a Q tip to reapply the etch turned out just like it was when it was made. He said it was so easy that now he looks at Damascus blades a lot different now.

I do like a hand rubbed finish and as a maker I find this easy to maintain as well but can see where a collector would have trouble unless he knew what the maker did to finish it so he could fix scratches. I am not set in my ways by any means but for heavy users I generally go 400 grit. Mostly I go 800 grit but as I learn and my tastes change the grit keeps going up, my next few knives I am taking to 2000 grit hand rubbed just to see if I am going to like it.

I don't care for highly buffed jobs as most of them that I have seen the are poorly finished and the use the buffer to hide and speed up there finishing, this is just my opinion of course.

 

[David Stifle]

Hi Guys,

I'm quite surprised some guys like mirror finishes. One small scratch and it looks like the grande canyon. And you can't just restore that one spot either. You'll have to do the entire side of the blade the scratch is on and getting it back up to a mirror finish probably means you will have to progress through multiple grits plus additional buffing.That's a lot of work.

A good ole fashioned hand rubbed blade, to say, 600 -800 grit, is hard to beat for an attractive user finish. Most guys could heavy use such a blade and restore the finish with a little careful work.

As for coated blades, I personally would not hesitate to carry one, but they don't really ring my bell. I too like the look of steel.

Regards,

Dave

 

[jjtjr]

I agree with most, that in my opinion damascus keeps a better finish than either a mirror polish or a hand rubbed finish on carbon steel knives.

I like mirror polish but not on knives that I don't plan to use. It definitly seems to have less spotting than hand rubbed finishes.

The only experience that I have had with coated blades is a couple of folders that I used. The finish did not hold up. have seen a few knives that coating added to the look of the knife, but in general I prefer a non coated blade.

Jim Treacy