Apprentices, has anybody had one?

G

Gene Martin

Joined
Feb 5, 1999
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I get a rquest sometimes from someone wanting to apprentice under me. Until my back is fixed next month it's out of the question, but on the basis of considering it, how does it work? What is the responsibility of the apprentice, what responsibilities are the maker's? I'd especially like to hear about experiences with this, good or bad, from makers or aprentices.

Thanks,

Gene
 
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I have apprenticed many jewelers. They learn for free, and work for free until they are productive enough to do trade work. Then I pay them a fair (but not high) wage. They agree to work for one year from the point I start paying them. They do all the "grunt" work. Polishing, sanding, sizing, cleanup, etc. They learn from a master jeweler, which is far more valuable than going to a four week school. Every one of my former apprentices has become a successful jeweler. One became so successful that he opened a jewelery training school.

As far as blacksmith/ bladesmith apprentices, I have only had people I was teaching on a now and then basis. They did some clean up and helped with a few projects in the shop.

From what I understand about others who have had apprentices, it is sort of a Mr. Miagi setup. You do the chores and heavy work, watch listen, learn. As you become proficient, you will be given tasks that free up the smith for more expert work. You will forge out round bar, grind and sand,etc. Once you become proficient enough to do stock work, you might be forging out blanks, or cutting and profiling blades. Most work at the shop as time permits, and leave when they have become accomplished enough to set up their own shop. I would guess it depends a lot on whether the teacher is a full time smith, or a part timer.
Stacy
 
I currently have one apprentice, and will soon be taking on another. My current apprentice Mark, pays me for the time in my shop. his only responsibility is to learn what I teach him.
My second apprentice will be trading me for work. 1 hour of teaching = 1 hour of work.
I think the most important thing is that the person you have in your shop is someone you can get along with. You don't want someone in your shop that will get on your nerves and ruin your day. I have many things to say to new apprentices, but I won't list them here, because I type too slow. Here are a few anyway.
I am responsible for teaching you are responsible for learning.
Don't be afraid to ask questions, no matter how trivial, sometimes the little things ARE important.
There are no stupid questions.

How you work with apprentices is up to you and them, but sit down and talk it out first. Keep open communication all the time.
I personally teach by doing.
I explain first.
Then I show.
Then they do.
Then they practice until they get it right.

Hope this helps.
Del
 
Within the last 6 months, I have had two guys ask about coming to my shop to spend some time and "Pick-My-Brain" on how to make knives. I told them that they were welcome to come by and spend as much time as they wanted, however, I could teach them everything I know in about 30 minutes.

I realize that things could ge out of hand pretty quickly, especially running a propane forge and buying belts, but my shop is always open to anybody who wants to take that long addictive road of making knives. I am not a JS or MS, I am simply a master BS:D, but nothing makes me feel better than sharing what little I know with somebody who has the bug.

IF I see that things are not going well, I may have to step on some toes and offer a free reality check, but that is not a problem....... Folks have stepped on my toes so many times that I can slide them under a crack in a door and still have room to wiggle them.

That is my 2 cents worth as of today (may change in the future).

Robert
 
delbert ealy said:
I currently have one apprentice, and will soon be taking on another. My current apprentice Mark, pays me for the time in my shop. his only responsibility is to learn what I teach him.
My second apprentice will be trading me for work. 1 hour of teaching = 1 hour of work.
I think the most important thing is that the person you have in your shop is someone you can get along with. You don't want someone in your shop that will get on your nerves and ruin your day. I have many things to say to new apprentices, but I won't list them here, because I type too slow. Here are a few anyway.
I am responsible for teaching you are responsible for learning.
Don't be afraid to ask questions, no matter how trivial, sometimes the little things ARE important.
There are no stupid questions.

How you work with apprentices is up to you and them, but sit down and talk it out first. Keep open communication all the time.
I personally teach by doing.
I explain first.
Then I show.
Then they do.
Then they practice until they get it right.

Hope this helps.
Del
Click to expand...

I sure wish I lived near you!!! I would love to find a mentor that would teach me like that!!
 
I've had many requests over the years, and thats why I developed and offer classes. I'm a nut on sole authorship, and simply could not have someone else working on knives that I will mark with my name and offer for sale. The legal issues are the first hurdle.....take the time and effort to create/develop a "waiver of liability" and have them sign it. Several years ago I sharpened a knife for someone who walked in off the street, and later that day the phone rang. Someone on the other end asked "Am I speaking to Mr. Ed Caffrey?" I thought it was one of my friends pulling a joke, and said so. Then the voice said "Sir, this is no prank." "Did you sharpen a knife for XXXX today?" When I said "Yes", I was informed that I was being sued for medical bills and pain/suffering because the individual had cut himself and taken 14 stitches.

Scared the daylights outta me! Luckily my wife played on a city sports team with one of the law firm owners in town. She told him about it, and he called. His first question was "Did you EVER tell him that you were not responsible if he cut himself?" Which I did, and to make a long story short, he took care of the situation for me. He also took the time to sit down with me and draw up a waiver of liability that anyone coming into the shop to work must sign. The moral of the story is to cover your butt! I still sharpen a lot of knives for various folks, but all are given a verbal warning, and all of the receipts state "Please use caution, not responsible for personal injury."

OK, that being said, the same applies to apprentices or those taking classes in your shop. In my opinion, if you have someone else working on anything you intend to sell, then its no longer yours, and your taking a big chance with your good name. So in my opinion, if someone else is in your shop, in a working situation, then it should be "class time" versus production time. Class time means that all efforts are directed towards the individual's learning, and any production takes place when they are gone.

If your in it strictly for the fun of it, then your dealing with a different set of circumstances. But, if this is your business, you must treat it as such, and take the time to consider all the angles, and protect yourself. Thats not only your business/assets, but also your name as a knifemaker/bladesmith. 20 years ago we would have never had to worry, but in today's world things are totally different.

I will schedule and give classes for anyone, but actually taking on an apprentice or being a mentor requires a lot of consideration and thought on your part.
 
I never gave this much thought.:confused: But, this past Saturday I had Jon and Charro over. Jon cleaned my grinding room and Charro chip in for propane. Thanks Guys.:thumbup:
 
I've had several requests, one unfavorable and one very good one that's going to start this year.
Another favorable, one of my sons, wants to but lives too far away. Vegas is a LONG way from SE Iowa.
 
As a mason contractor I've had about 15 over the last 25 years.
a lot of good boys and couple of know it all boys .
I told them all that if they think they know every thing then the teaching is done.
I told them i deserve the respect of any master in my craft.or hit the road.
I found that all but one was not worth anything.they all made it . Now i have a friend that is 72years old and he is trying to learn what i know about making knifes, which is not much, so this is another Apprentice..
any way thats what i call hem and he just laughs.:D
vern
 
From the other side. If anyone near mid Michigan would be willing to impart some lernings to a thinkIcanbe grinder, I would be most thankful. Not looking for a handout, and respect the opinions offrered in this thread.

Matt
 
I started out on the path as an apprentice to an old school stock removal guy. I would work 5-8 hours in his shop for 1-2 hours of time on mine. I would clean, cut blanks and handle material, as my skills progressed (well as he deemed they'd progressed) I started drilling holes and doing some grinding and fit up work. I quit working with him because he had a lot of custom equipment that I knew I'd never have. I do appreciate the time and effort he put into teaching me.

I spent about 6 hours with Jerry Fisk at Buckmaster's when he came down here as a demonstrator. I learned a lot about smithing from him.

Fast forward about a year. I found an ABS JS about 2-3 hours from me and spent a couple of weekends with him. I mainly learned a few pointers about smithing but he taught me a LOT about the business and design end of knifemaking. I didn't do much for him but bring some supplies and then hide some money in his truck when he wasn't looking. I hope he found it.

I cherish the time with both but only kept the relationship up with my smithing teacher. I will always consider him a true friend and someone I learned a lot about the craft from.

My understanding of the relationship is based on the traditional aspects of the teacher/apprentice. Unless you're a master you're not supposed to charge money but can accept gifts. The student does what he/she is told and is expected to be dilligent in their work. This relationship dovetails in how I was raised so it's not that weirda thing for me.

My shop is open to anyone and I've had several customers and others come through. I don't charge anything and refuse any kind of money (because I'm not a mastersmith.) I feel that my teachers have laid an obligation on my to share my lessons with anyone willing to put in the time to learn.

I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.... it was $1 beer night at my favorite watering hole and I wasn't driving. :D
 
Robert Dark said:
Within the last 6 months, I have had two guys ask about coming to my shop to spend some time and "Pick-My-Brain" on how to make knives. I told them that they were welcome to come by and spend as much time as they wanted, however, I could teach them everything I know in about 30 minutes.

I realize that things could ge out of hand pretty quickly, especially running a propane forge and buying belts, but my shop is always open to anybody who wants to take that long addictive road of making knives. I am not a JS or MS, I am simply a master BS:D, but nothing makes me feel better than sharing what little I know with somebody who has the bug.

IF I see that things are not going well, I may have to step on some toes and offer a free reality check, but that is not a problem....... Folks have stepped on my toes so many times that I can slide them under a crack in a door and still have room to wiggle them.

That is my 2 cents worth as of today (may change in the future).

Robert
Click to expand...
Robert,
I have seen your work and watched your knives in the cutting competitions, You could not pass along what you know in thirty minutes.

Also, no one could learn to sling as much BS as yourself, with 20 years of practice.:D

You are very skilled at both.:thumbup: Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Robert,
I have seen your work and watched your knives in the cutting competitions, You could not pass along what you know in thirty minutes.

Also, no one could learn to sling as much BS as yourself, with 20 years of practice.:D

You are very skilled at both.:thumbup: Fred
Click to expand...

Fred, you might be right. It would probably take a slow learner at least 45 minutes to learn everything I have to offer......... EXCEPT for the B.S. ---- That could take a lifetime.:D

Robert
 
I have a couple of steady students who I teach as a function of the SCA. One of them has a garage i set up forges in so that we can do it all winter, I teach people who are willing to learn, they as they get more experienced help me teach the newer ones. I sometimes use my students as strikers when I want to move something fast. I realize this isn't a true apprentice program, but thenm I'm not in a position where I could take and support a real apprentice.
I apprenticed to a cabinetmaker when I was 14, and it was definitely a Mr. Miagi thing, lots of grunt work, small pay.

-Page
 
I am not a metalsmith nor a knifemaker but I can comment on being an apprentice tattoo'ist or body piercist or security worker at "parties"

Tattoo artist generally charge in relation to how popular they are.. between 2K and 25K for 6 months to a year or so of teaching depending on the artist

Body stuff is done pretty much the same way, but at a slightly lower rate 2K to 5K for normal stuff

The above is how i have SEEN it done...the better the artist the more he can charge..I have heard that Paul Booth was offered 20K to teach someone and he laughed at them for offering him such an insultingly small amount...:)

"party" work?? gotta know someone that knows someone that can vouch for ya...They get 10-15% of your tips for a certain amount of time

I really would like to work with a master Metalworker but there are no smiths around here that could stand to be around me for any length of time!! :)

I dont see anything wrong with an apprentice paying for the master's time with cash AND hard work...
 
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