Ar-15...

I purchased a stripped Rock River receiver for $128 bucks including shipping. I then purchased a carbine A3 upper from Sherluck for $415 bucks (included was the parts kit for the lower). For under $550 bucks I have a reliable and accurate AR15 and the fit and finish is comparable to the Colt M4 I carried as an LEO.
 
M1911A1JohnBrowning said:
In my far from humble opinion, I think you probably should get something other than a squirt gun. Military troops must make due with what they are given, but I can't imagine why you would want a 5-10 shot stopper spray and pray rifle. I fired my friends AR once, and I don't understand the logic behind such a bb gun for anti-personel use.

I am also a 19 year old college student, and I have a 10/22 for cheap practice. My "social workers" are a DSA Fal, a 12 gauge Remington 870, a Sig 220 and a 1911. I also have an 8mm mauser and several other 12 gauges.

Just my Gene Stoner hating input.
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LOL, that's okay. I know troops must make do with what they're given, but I happen to like what I was given. A lot. ^_^

So I know you guys are all telling me how you bought an upper from so and so and a lower from that one guy... but where are you getting these deals? And to get the lower receiver, can I just order company direct and pick it up from a gun store with an FFL?
 
Shot Gun News is a good starting point. You have a computer at your disposal use google and do a search for Sherluck, Rock River Arms, Model 1 etc.
 
I did that, I'm not entirely stupid. >.<... just mildly retarded.

What I mean is I have all the companies bookmarked and have done my little comparison shopping, but you can't buy a lower receiver online without an FFL. I obviously don't have one. What is the procedure for buying a gun like that, in general? Plus, everyone is quoting prices a lot lower than I'm seeing, which means that retail prices are generally lower than MSRP that the company sites are charging, and I would like to know where people are getting them at those prices.
 
You have it sent to a local gun dealer who charges you a few bucks for the paperwork. Not all gun dealers do that; talk to your local dealers and ask them if they do it and how much they charge.
 
I fired my friends AR once, and I don't understand the logic behind such a bb gun for anti-personel use.
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Yes, clearly, the 75 million or so soldiers and LEO's that have forsaken 762 for 556 are a bunch of sissy boy non-hackers.

And the NATO militaries that shucked .30 caliber rifles for 556 are obviously not interested in defeating the enemy, merely kowtowing to political pressure. Marines and special operations forces especially are known for their lack of interest in lethality, thus explaining their preference for the 556mm M16 system as an individual weapon.

And the LE agencies adopting 556 by the semitruck load use them primarily for shooting tin cans and gerbils.

556 does a fine job on bad guys, but it's always entertaining to hear the old school talk sh*t about it.
 
I absolutely, positively, without a doubt can assure you that 5.56 FMJ put into the upper torso will do as good a job as is possible with any shoulder fired weapon. I have seen wounds inflicted by 5.56 both in autopsy photos and in person. They are far more severe than you would expect from the size of that tiny bullet. What you give up going to the 5.56 from 7.62 is effective range. 5.56 depends (at least in the FMJ loadings) on fragmentation and that depends on velocity. The problem with current performance with the M4 platform (other than basic marksmanship) is that the 14.5 inch barrell reduces velocity significantly. Add to that the replacement of the 55 gr M193 load with the M855 62 gr "penetrator" load which runs at lower velocity to begin with and you get the effective fragmentation range limited to within 100 yards. I would point out however that even if the round does not fragment it will still tend to drive a .22 caliber hole all the way through the target. The AR is accurate and rapid follow up shots are very easy. 22 caliber holes in the heart, lungs, or CNS are not good for the recipient. I wouldn't want to have to carry a M4 in the mountains of Afghanistan, where ranges can stretch out to several hundred yards, but that's not going to happen to me anytime soon, nor to most internet posters. I need a light rifle that will be effective in an urban setting, will be handy enough to possibly do an entry on an active shooter holed up in a school or other setting, and is accurate enough to take a shot if needed on a partially obscurred target. The ability to defeat light armour is a definate bonus. The AR 15 platform, especialy in a carbine length rifle, fulfils my requirements. Now I am no high speed, low drag, snake eating, commando/swat, ex SEAL operator, but I am a guy who has to strap on a pistol every day and oversee the clean up after a couple of our fine citizens resolve their problems through trial by combat. I find the Poodle Shooter Vs M14 debate even more ludicrous than people who think that 9mm is useless, 40 SW is even more useless, and 45 acp is a death ray. They are tools people. If you use them correctly, they all work pretty well.

Er, apparently my lack of sleep has made me cranky. I'll get off my soapbox now and try and catch a nap. The proceeding rant has been brought to you by 12 hour shifts and my neighbors mowing the yard as soon as my head finally hit the pillow. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
madcap_magician said:
I did that, I'm not entirely stupid. >.<... just mildly retarded.

What I mean is I have all the companies bookmarked and have done my little comparison shopping, but you can't buy a lower receiver online without an FFL. I obviously don't have one. What is the procedure for buying a gun like that, in general? Plus, everyone is quoting prices a lot lower than I'm seeing, which means that retail prices are generally lower than MSRP that the company sites are charging, and I would like to know where people are getting them at those prices.
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I didn't mean to come across harsh or condescending. I have a buddy who has an FFL. He ordered the stripped lower for me. He added a few dollars for his efforts with the total being $128. The upper I got by just being at the right gun show at the right time.
 
I have seen wounds inflicted by 5.56 both in autopsy photos and in person.
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Hey, let's not go screwing up the debate with actual EXPERIENCE.

Hearsay, conjecture and gunshop BS is FAR more entertaining.
 
I have only two things to say about the M16A4's lethality.

A. I would most definitely not enjoy being shot with one.

B. 80% of the reason I want it is so that I can keep getting familiarized with shooting one, so I'll qualify better the next time I go to the range with my battalion. The other 20% is so I can shoot pop cans and make them explode (Shake 'em up and throw 'em downrange, it's hella fun...).

Thanks to Cougar for answering my question!

No offense taken Beowulf ;) :D
 
xsrdx said:
Hey, let's not go screwing up the debate with actual EXPERIENCE.

Hearsay, conjecture and gunshop BS is FAR more entertaining.
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I have two cousins in Iraq right now. Both of their dads are Vietnam veterans. I also know a former Clinton era Marine that used to like to put 3 round bursts in a head target at 400 yards with an M-16. Every one of them agrees with me.

The fact of the matter is, due to the speed the bullet is traveling, a .223 creates a temporary wound cavity 10 times the bullets size. That makes it far more powerful that any service pistol. Being a Law Enforcement student, I have seen pictures in my ballistics class of damage done by .223's. They do kill people, but I still would prefer the vastly more powerful 12 gauge out to 100 yards, and a .308 beyond that. I personaly would want a crazed gunman on the ground before he can take me with him.

Just the same, I suppose if I had to be good with M-16's for ROTC I would also want an AR.
 
Just so you know, 12 ga buckshot has an effective range of under 25 yards before the pattern opens up wide enough to scatter pellets off the target. 12 ga slug loads are still effective at 100, but due to the rainbow like trajectory accurate hits on small moving targets are going to be difficult. Add to that the fact that 12 ga ammo is bulky and heavy, thus you can't really carry much. The 12 ga is an extremely effective close range weapon, but not the hammer of God that people make it out to be. I have personal knowledge of a local pharmacutical salesman who took a 12 ga slug center of mass at point blank range and survived. Definately a fluke event, but it happened. I am a big fan of the shotgun, and am a proponent of keeping them in the squad cars rather than replacing them entirely with patrol rifles, but it does have the drawbacks of limited on board ammo, limited reserve ammo due to weight, short range, and heavy recoil which makes it difficult to shoot for some people. My stance on the issue is that in an urban setting where I need a long gun the shotgun is good for most of what I need. If the dead rise and I need to face down a horde of zombies, or there is some kind of serious social upheaval, or I KNOW I'm going to a gunfight then I want an AR carbine. If I'm way out in the middle of nowhere with wide open spaces then I'd want a 7.62 for the extended range, but I wouldn't be upset with a full size AR platform. But that is just my opinion and has no special value.
 
I do deer hunting in lower michigan, and in lower michigan your options are limited to a shotgun, pistol using straight walled cartriges, and black powder. I regularly practice with slugs out to 100 yards, and at that distance most of them end up in a group the size of a dinner plate. Its all a matter of practice. I never did get I deer so far, but some moron did shoot a truly big buck that I almost got. He simply got the shot right before I did. It was stupid, because he was 40 yards or so from me, and the deer was 10 feet from me and my dad. But anyway, he hit the deer in the head, and the top of its head was blown clean off. I have no doubts about how much better I find a 12 gauge than any other shoulder fired weapon.
 
good for you, cadet!


however, i think you don't have your priorities quite where they should be. sure, AR's are fun. but just think, after you're commissioned you'll probably qual on most small arms in the army, and you'll be given more than enough time behind an m16. after you get that brown bar, you'll have the opportunity to shoot all you want.


but right now you're in college. it's only 4 years of your life. you should be putting all available funds you've got towards beer, girls, and burritos. i'm serious.

just think. as an officer you'll have to qual on the m16. when you go to the field, you'll lug around that weapon. when you get sent to the sandbox you'll pretty much be required to carry your weapon anywhere off base. to top it off you'll have to maintain the accountability of your weapon, plus all your mens' weapons in your platoon. and eventually, on some lonely, hot, miserable day you'll look down at your m16 and just want to chuck it into a river. the last thing you'll want is to come back stateside and have an AR waiting for you at home.

whereas, you could take all that money and blow it on strippers, beer, and maybe a girlfriend. then on that lonely, hot, miserable day you can look back on fond memories of your youth, and when you come back stateside maybe that girlfriend will be the one waiting for you at home.

;)




"there is a time and place for everything. it's called college." - chef
 
If the dead rise and I need to face down a horde of zombies, or there is some kind of serious social upheaval, or I KNOW I'm going to a gunfight then I want an AR carbine.
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And that's just it. Shotguns have their place, as do .30 caliber rifles - But when it comes to getting fast hits on multiple targets, the M16/AR platform is very hard to equal. Speed is life when the target is shooting back.

Especially in the 16-20" varieties, with optics and the right bullet for the task, the M16 series has few peers in terms of applying lethal force as quickly and accurately as possible over the ranges one most often encounters bad guys. This is the dominant factor accounting for 40 years of phenomenal success.

Boy we sure drifted the snot outta this thread. :eek:
 
First you say
M1911A1JohnBrowning said:
I can't imagine why you would want a 5-10 shot stopper... I don't understand the logic behind such a bb gun for anti-personel use.
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then you say
M1911A1JohnBrowning said:
The fact of the matter is, due to the speed the bullet is traveling, a .223 creates a temporary wound cavity 10 times the bullets size. That makes it far more powerful that any service pistol.
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So which is it?
See, by your logic, the 5.56mm rifles are far more powerful than service pistols YET they need 5-10 shots to stop someone? Wow. So I guess you need like 20-40 rounds of 9mm or .40 to stop someone, right?

First you say
M1911A1JohnBrowning said:
spray and pray rifle
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then you say
M1911A1JohnBrowning said:
I also know a former Clinton era Marine that used to like to put 3 round bursts in a head target at 400 yards with an M-16.
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Again, which is it?
Is it a spray and pray rifle or is it accurate?

I'm very confused.

Please explain to me the magic of the M16/AR15 that it can be both "powerful" and a "bb gun." Please explain to me how it can be a "spray and pray" weapon and yet dump three round bursts into a head at 400 yards.

Like above posters, I'm a little confused as to how such a crappy weapon, in your "not so humble opinion," could be the choice weapon of so many professionals in this day and age. I guess I could maybe swallow your whole argument that the military uses what it has to use if it weren't for all the law enforcement agencies looking to 5.56mm patrol carbines like they are the hottest thing since sliced bread.

There are certainly more powerful manstoppers than the 5.56mm. If you had said that in the first place instead of BS'ing, maybe you would've had more of an argument to stand on.
 
ThinkOfTheChildren

The fact .223's are more powerful than handguns does not say much. All handguns are weak compared to centerfire rifles. Compared to a .308, I do indeed consider a .223 a bb gun.

About my "Spray and Pray" comment, not all soldiers are like my friend. My friend shot his daisy about as soon as he could walk. Many other people, particularly non-Marines unquestionably like to use the M16 like a hose.

"See, by your logic, the 5.56mm rifles are far more powerful than service pistols YET they need 5-10 shots to stop someone? Wow. So I guess you need like 20-40 rounds of 9mm or .40 to stop someone, right?"

Another guy I know, a relative of his was shot 29 times by 9mm's and lived. Derranged and high people can be lethaly shot, and use there last 15 seconds to kill you. I know of a case where several men emptied .38's into a small and insane woman charging them with a sword. She was surely as good as dead, but had a few moments left and was doing everything she could to kill them. At the last second, another man arrived with a riot gun and almost blew her in half with one shot. I don't believe a .223 could have come close. In my Cop classes, a number of people, including veterans of Iraq and Afganistan have advocated dumping all 28 rounds into a someone when shooting to kill with a full auto .223. I believe a better option is using something more powerful. Dumping that many shots into a dangerous threat is stupid and risks undue harm to bystanders.

Things are different in a war than on duty for cops. I suppose if I had to kill 10 very angry Islamic fundametalists, I would not wish to have to reload in the middle of the shootout. Unless I'm good enough to shoot each one in the head under the stress of the situation, or lucky, I'd be using at least 2 magazines. Thats why I like my SA58.

Many of those in the Military advocate larger calibers. I forgot all the details, but there is a project that I believe was started by soldiers to make a cartridge that would fit on the M16 platform and have more power. Its a 6.somethingmm. Particularly at longer distances that are common in Iraq and Afghanistan, the .223 clearly lacks power. And clearly, at the distance most LEO's use .223's, a 12 gauge would be more effective.

The bottom line is, I know what I would trust with my life, and you know what you trust with yours. Guns for used for protecting their owners life are important, and thats why I like to voice my opinions about them.
 
6.8 MM IIRC is the new round they are working on, have heard its pretty good.

a M16/AR15 is an excellent rifle for SD imho especially with the new 77gr and heavier ammo they army is using now, if ya think it takes 10 rounds to put someone down ya are mistaken imho. imho for SD the only other rifle (i prefer rifles to shotguns for the added range and more ammo capability) to even get close to an AR is a AK47, which is probaly a little more reliable and a little less accurate, but certainly accurate enough, also like the 5.45X39MM the new AK74 round, it shoots a little flatter than 7.62X39 but probably doesnt have the punch the old AK has. the main pro the AR has over the AK is imho is ergonomics and the ease of adding accesories, not that ya need tons of stuff but a SF light and aimpoint never hurt.

would prefer the AR15/M4/M16 over any pistol though.

FWIW i used to work with a guy who was shot not once but twice in the noggin w/a .45 acp 230gr ball, other than talking funny he is ok now, of course it was a fluke (the rounds bounced off teeth and didnt penetrate) but no round is a "sure" stopper unless ya place it in the correct spot, and even then sometimes things dont work out.
 
Ugh, 1911JB,
If we just want to play roundabout games of, "I know someone who..." then this argument can go on forever... especially when it comes to, "I know someone who knows someone who..."

Nevermind.

You're right: you own what you want and I'll own what I want.

Take care.
 
M1911A1JohnBrowning said:
Another guy I know, a relative of his was shot 29 times by 9mm's and lived.
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I am finding this very hard to believe, unless of course he was shot in the foot 29 times...I can't see anyone living for very long with 29 holes in the chest...your internal organs would look like swiss cheese.
 
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