Archery, Survival Yes, Hunting No!

[Old CW4]

I hunt for meat! No heads, no horns, and so on. What I kill, I eat. A long time ago, after taking some stupid long or weird angle shots with both guns and bows, and seeing the results, I resolved no more! I gave up on bows because, despite the best equipment and skills, it's still a bit 'iffy' in my case so I went to guns. I use two main rifles and one handgun when hunting. The rifles are a 7mm mag and a 45-70 with 'modern' loads that will knock a bull elk on his ass. The 41 mag pistol with 220 grain handloads at 1700 fps, verified on my chrono, have taken six one shot elk in CO and NM and several deer in UT. I can get meat at the supermarket so I'll no longer do that final trigger pull unless, as I said, I can guarantee a 'thunderbolt'---an animal down and dead in seconds. I was nearly killed by an arrow shot mule deer on one occasion. It appeared to be down and dead. I went to it and stepped on an antler, then lifted the other to slit its throat, all 215 lbs of me got tossed for a somersault and I faced a big buck on his feet and trying to kill me. I survived, obviously, but I said right then, no more arrows. I'll rifle or big bore handgun shoot and then go round to the back and head shoot again before any more tries at throat cutting. I have the shakes right now thinking about that episode. I love bows and archery. I appreciate the guys who are careful hunters and stalk in close to make good shots. What I hate are the idiots who launch arrows (or bullets) from too long a range and don't bother to track down their wounded, suffering prey. Seen too many of them out there dead.

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Don

.....Perhaps it is because we live in different places...but just how "responsible" can you be at night and driving 55 MPH, the posted speed limit? Answer? Sometimes they jump out. If you see them and you don't slow down, that's just foolish but when you are talking about some of the areas around here, it is simply impossible to travel the posted speed limit and avoid hitting these animals. There is no reactionary gap because of the close proximity of their habitat, the woods right along the side of the road.

I hate to say this for fear of jinxing myself but the only incident I have had with a deer was when a doe hit me. I saw her and a couple other deer in the median and it was either 30 or 35 MPH posted in that area and I slowed down to about 7 MPH and she bolted, she was so close to the road, she bolted and she hit my vehicle, the driver's side door where it meets the front quarterpanel. Now, that's not my fault she freaked and tried to kill herself. There was no front end damage, all on the side well away from the front portion of the vehicle and I have seen many vehicles damaged in this way.

Vehicles and highways mixed with wild animals is a blender. I agree with you that most people are irresponsible but, come on, this "point" is really stretching it. Some of these deer pop up and jump out of nowhere and they get smashed.

Were is it written you can't travel at less than the posted speed when wild animals are in the area and haven't been spotted?

We have very little in the way of deer over here, but we have large numbers of Roo's on country roads at night. This problem is multiplied by 10 during drought when the roos collect at the roadside drains for the remaining green pick available.

This is made even worse at dawn & dusk when the sunlight really isn't enough to see them at a distance, & the headlights don't stand out enough to be able to spot them.

I am quite prepared to travel at less than the posted speed in order to increase my available reaction time, should I spot a Roo. And yes, there have also been times when I have needed to slow to a slow walk whilst driving amoungst them. Takes a bit longer to get from A to B, but it saves the hassle & cost of visiting the pannel beaters after I get home :thumbup:

Seems to have worked 'cause after 30 years of driving" I haven't hit one yet or had one hit me (where is the touch wood smilie that shows my hand going to my head ).

BTW, if you have another car overtake you because your going too slow, this is a good thing. Not only will their headlights add to available illumination, they can Icebreak for you (or is that roo break)




Kind regards
Mick

 

[August West]

I hunt for meat! No heads, no horns, and so on. What I kill, I eat. A long time ago, after taking some stupid long or weird angle shots with both guns and bows, and seeing the results, I resolved no more! I gave up on bows because, despite the best equipment and skills, it's still a bit 'iffy' in my case so I went to guns. I use two main rifles and one handgun when hunting. The rifles are a 7mm mag and a 45-70 with 'modern' loads that will knock a bull elk on his ass. The 41 mag pistol with 220 grain handloads at 1700 fps, verified on my chrono, have taken six one shot elk in CO and NM and several deer in UT. I can get meat at the supermarket so I'll no longer do that final trigger pull unless, as I said, I can guarantee a 'thunderbolt'---an animal down and dead in seconds. I was nearly killed by an arrow shot mule deer on one occasion. It appeared to be down and dead. I went to it and stepped on an antler, then lifted the other to slit its throat, all 215 lbs of me got tossed for a somersault and I faced a big buck on his feet and trying to kill me. I survived, obviously, but I said right then, no more arrows. I'll rifle or big bore handgun shoot and then go round to the back and head shoot again before any more tries at throat cutting. I have the shakes right now thinking about that episode. I love bows and archery. I appreciate the guys who are careful hunters and stalk in close to make good shots. What I hate are the idiots who launch arrows (or bullets) from too long a range and don't bother to track down their wounded, suffering prey. Seen too many of them out there dead.

Thats your ethics and your opinion. If someone wants to go out and hunt for a trophy head there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I know people that hunt every year, get their buck and donate the meat to hunters for the homeless, that is their prerogative.

Every hunter should do everything within their power to make sure shots resulting in quick kills but the truth of the matter is it does not always happen that way. Maybe the animal turns quickly right as the sear breaks or the arrow is released, like it or not, that is part of hunting.

I hear so much about slob hunters on the internet but IMO the actual majority of hunters that I know and encounter in the woods and fields are good, conscientious hunters looking for meat for the freezer or a head for the wall, I see very, very few of the PBR drinking rednecks so oft talked about on line. Simple truth of the matter is that most of those guys are too lazy to hunt anyway.

I am happy you hunt and and hope you have many more seasons with a full game bag. But as long as I stay within the laws set forth by state game and fish departments don't try to enforce your ethics and ideals on me. There is enough room for everyone. Chris


EDIT: No one but god can "guarantee a 'thunderbolt'---an animal down and dead in seconds" If everything you have shot has ended that way, you are very lucky indeed, or you haven't shot much game.

 

[Don Rearic]

G'day Don


Were is it written you can't travel at less than the posted speed when wild animals are in the area and haven't been spotted?

Howdy Mick!

You absolutely can! If I see them, I start to slow down. I cannot control other people. In some areas, I do run the risk of a high-speed rear-end collision, someone slamming into me, for doing this.

That having been said, there are wild animals in all areas and there is no way this country, this part of the country, is going to go under the speed limit for the possibility of an animal jumping out in the road, one that is not even spotted yet. It's just not going to happen. It's hard enough to get people to slow down when they see them! The commutes are horrendous around here and people are not going to add dozens of hours every year to their commute for animals not even spotted... (Some people do spend hundreds of hours in their vehicle commuting to and from work here.)

We have very little in the way of deer over here, but we have large numbers of Roo's on country roads at night. This problem is multiplied by 10 during drought when the roos collect at the roadside drains for the remaining green pic available.

I read about that a year or so ago, maybe three, that you had a really terrible drought and had a lot of Roos (great name!) struck.

I am quite prepared to travel at less than the posted speed in order to increase my available reaction time, should I spot a Roo. And yes, there have also been times when I have needed to slow to a slow walk whilst driving amoungst them. Takes a bit longer to get from A to B, but it saves the hassle & cost of visiting the pannel beaters after I get home.

Panel beaters! Bwahahahaha!

Well, like I said, people here commute every day and the very same people that won't slow down won't vote to allow hunters to clear out certain areas that are overpopulated with deer to start with. BWI Airport had a whitetail deer crash through one of the huge windows and go running down the inside of the airport just a few years ago.

The irony is, they consider hunting "unsafe" but the way they drive a vehicle is totally acceptable to them. Just like seeing morons with gun control stickers on their bumper or rear window and they're driving like a moron.

 

[Don Rearic]

Thats your ethics and your opinion. If someone wants to go out and hunt for a trophy head there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I know people that hunt every year, get their buck and donate the meat to hunters for the homeless, that is their prerogative.

I wouldn't have a problem with that either. They're donating the meat, it's not being wasted.

Every hunter should do everything within their power to make sure shots resulting in quick kills but the truth of the matter is it does not always happen that way. Maybe the animal turns quickly right as the sear breaks or the arrow is released, like it or not, that is part of hunting.

That's very true. It's a wild animal in an uncontrolled environment, anything can happen.

I am happy you hunt and and hope you have many more seasons with a full game bag. But as long as I stay within the laws set forth by state game and fish departments don't try to enforce your ethics and ideals on me. There is enough room for everyone. Chris

CW4 is referring to himself using archery no more. Yet he is preaching the message incredibly hard as if it cannot be done or, as you point out, if you cannot do it perfectly every time, it should not be done. Which leads to your final statement of your last post:

EDIT: No one but god can "guarantee a 'thunderbolt'---an animal down and dead in seconds" If everything you have shot has ended that way, you are very lucky indeed, or you haven't shot much game.

Yeah, that's pretty much the cold glass of water in the face with "REALITY" written on the side of it.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

The second type of poacher, and please consider that this country is incredibly large and as we discussed with driving around deer, there are many different areas in the country with different dynamics, etc.

There are places down south that are economically depressed areas and now, more than ever, hunting and fishing licenses are increasing in price and people need to kill for food. Not because they like to, but that's just the way it is. I'm sure with some it is a rebel attitude but I have known quite a few people that do it for real, because if they don't, they don't really have enough money to feed their family.

I know some people might not like this way of thinking and they might get all indignant about this but, that's the way it is.

Hunting is not getting any cheaper and some of those areas are not getting any "better," either. Sometimes, there is a reason to break the law. Some will inevitably say, "That's true, but then if you get caught, you have to pay the penalty." Laws that prevent poor people from obtaining food in this manner, well, I don't consider them moral or ethical, either. Just me. Roast me if you want to. Won't change anything.

It's interesting, my brother was talking to me a few weeks ago about some article he read or documentary he watched about some river in England and the British Gent that was talking said that Britain is the real place of capitalism, you have to be a member of a club or you cannot fish on any of that river. In The United States, he was saying, just anyone can go out and go fishing.

I think that is where we are going. Earlier in this thread there was a hint of that - that because of the increase in hunting costs, it's keeping the lower class out of the game or diminishing their ranks...that kind of thinking will lead to terrible things.

And, I'm not casting ideas on you that you have not signed your name to, just talking about it. Nothing is perfect but it seems as though as we continue on in our development as a country, we are simply becoming more and more Draconian and people actively complain about the development and perpetuation of a nanny state, but they like the whole informant angle as well.

If a person did have three beers in him, I don't think that should mean the loss of a vehicle, I just don't. Poaching for profit? Yeah, take it. Feeding your kids...no...what is being done seems to be more about "The King's Lands" than the taxpayers lands...stepping back in time.

Agree 100%. I have no problem with "survival poaching", and I do have a problem with the "King's Lands" approach.

 

[Grapevine]

I think the hunting laws being on the books would allow the judges and officers in the area to use judgement on whether an offender was poaching for survival or poaching from a less than noble intent. Not having the laws in the books doesn't allow for weeding out the irresponsible.

 

[Don Rearic]

I would be shocked if a judge has ever let someone off of a poaching charge because they were poor.

 

[Gadgetaholic]

I would be shocked if a judge has ever let someone off of a poaching charge because they were poor.

If someone was accused of poaching and they were able to show that they only did it to provide food for their hungry family because they were poor then they would surely be treated more leniently. Maybe they wouldn't be found 'not guilty' but they would have a good chance at a warning and a very light sentence (community work rather than incarceration).

 

[DWK2]

Perhaps hunting for the desperately needy should be licensed under a different system, upon a showing of good cause. For example, I think that Alaska has a subsistence hunting license that costs little or nothing. As I recall, there are a few restraints on what the hunter can pursue, but the license is designed to facilitate year-around living off the land.

DancesWithKnives

 

[Don Rearic]

I think that would be a wonderful solution, actually.

 

[Don Rearic]

If someone was accused of poaching and they were able to show that they only did it to provide food for their hungry family because they were poor then they would surely be treated more leniently. Maybe they wouldn't be found 'not guilty' but they would have a good chance at a warning and a very light sentence (community work rather than incarceration).

It would be very rare for that to happen. The way the courts generally work over here is they would lose their firearm, possibly any others they owned because they are then a "criminal." Might lose the vehicle that transported them there and have to pay a fine and court costs that they cannot afford because if they could afford that sort of thing they could afford food in the first place. The law in this country, for the most part, is about making money. Even our traffic laws are starting to gear up even more towards pure revenue generation where they at least had the appearance of public safety in the past. A case in point is red light cameras, the contractors hired in multiple states here were setting the caution light shorter so the cameras would make more money. The reason the governments gave to have the cameras was to lower the amount of car accidents. But because they allowed the companies to shorten the caution light, they caused more rear end collisions where their stated goal was to stop T-bone types of collisions.

Everything is a racket here and the increase in hunting and fishing licenses is just another symptom of the disease of greed.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[August West]

Well I might be in the minority but I don't ever see a justification for poaching. Too many other/better ways in our society to feed your family. Not too mention guns/ammo and hunting equipment is expensive, how about spending that money on food, if poaching or hunting year round because your poor was allowed it would be abused to no end.

BTW there is no modern or antique hunting rifle that will knock a bull elk on his ass, including a 7mm mag or a 45/70.

I'll tell a little story, this story is graphic and if you are easily upset stop reading now.

I was in my favorite place in the world, a south GA swamp pig hunting, my arm of choice this day was my Marlin 336 in 35 Rem with a 3x7 leupold scope installed. It is a very nice shooting rifle, it will cloverleaf 50yrd groups which is about as far as I shoot. This rifle with me behind it has put many deer and hogs in the freezer and hits like a hammer, a friend of mine nicknamed it thumper, I have the utmost confidence in the rifle and myself shooting it.

So I am slipping along and I hear the telltale sounds of hogs in a little thicket no more than 40 yards from where I am standing. I slipped another 10 or so and sat down on a log to wait for a clear shot. Not too long a fairly good eater hog comes out of the thicket at about 25 to 30 yards perfectly broadside, chip shot for my rifle. I layed the crosshairs behind his shoulder and touched it off. At the shot the pig sqeauled and wheeled around back into the thicket, this is not unusual for a heart lung shot so did not bother me in the least. I sat there for about 15 minutes and then went into the thicket to recover my meat, I found very little blood, which did bother me, and as I was tracking I started finding pieces of entrails, that is when I figured out something didn't go right.

Well to speed this story up, there was actually about a thumb size limb about 3 feet in front of the muzzle of my rifle that I did not see with my naked eye or through the scope. Well I center punched that limb and my shot was deflected, hitting the hog low in the paunch. When the hog ran he literally ripped his own guts out on the brush he was running through, one of the most horrible deaths I could imagine. I did recover the hog but still feel bad about that shot, although I don't feel I did anything wrong. Murphy just kicked me in the balls, anything can happen even to people that work very hard at ensuring it won't. Chris

 

[Don Rearic]

Well I might be in the minority but I don't ever see a justification for poaching.

That is not surprising and I expected to see it and that's why I already addressed it.

Too many other/better ways in our society to feed your family.

In some parts of the country, you are absolutely correct. In other parts, you could not be more incorrect.

Not too mention guns/ammo and hunting equipment is expensive, how about spending that money on food, if poaching or hunting year round because your poor was allowed it would be abused to no end.

Yes, this is a common line of thought. Sure, they could sell the old Marlin 336C their father either gave them when they were a kid or they inherited upon the end of life...that's the common conservative way of thinking about "not having enough money" for things like this or health insurance, etc.

Only problem is, it's an immature way of thinking...that is unless the guy has a gun a month they can pawn in any given month that extra money is needed.

As far as everything else you have written in this thread, I think we are spot on right together with each other. As for what parts of Appalachia are and have been and will probably continue to be, we might as well be on different planets.

 

[August West]

Yes, this is a common line of thought. Sure, they could sell the old Marlin 336C their father either gave them when they were a kid or they inherited upon the end of life...that's the common conservative way of thinking about "not having enough money" for things like this or health insurance, etc.

Only problem is, it's an immature way of thinking...that is unless the guy has a gun a month they can pawn in any given month that extra money is needed.

As far as everything else you have written in this thread, I think we are spot on right together with each other. As for what parts of Appalachia are and have been and will probably continue to be, we might as well be on different planets.

Don,
I was born and raised in rural Appalachia, I am those people. If you are able bodied enough to hunt and get the game out of the woods, you are able bodied enough to work. If there absolutely are no jobs, a situation I have never seen for people willing to hustle work, a victory garden and a few chickens will go a long ways.

My grandfather worked in mines all his life with 6 kids, he kept them fed and raised them right without breaking laws doing it. Chris

 

[Don Rearic]

I am trying to be reasonable but some people are simply unreasonable and think that because they have a certain experience, others will have the same. Doesn't matter to me because I do work and I am not in that situation and I do not hunt anymore because I don't have the time or the money to in this area. But if I had to, I'd do what I had to do and sure as hell wouldn't let anyone's lofty ideas get in my way.

 

[August West]

I am trying to be reasonable but some people are simply unreasonable and think that because they have a certain experience, others will have the same. Doesn't matter to me because I do work and I am not in that situation and I do not hunt anymore because I don't have the time or the money to in this area. But if I had to, I'd do what I had to do and sure as hell wouldn't let anyone's lofty ideas get in my way.

And if I am the game warden and catch you I will take your gun and your vehicle, lofty or not.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. Game belongs to everyone not just poor people. I will begrudge no man legally obtaining all the fish and game he and his family can consume. Illegally, I will try to put you in jail. Chris

 

[Don Rearic]

Barney Badass.

 

[August West]

Barney Badass.

Absultely, and I have my bullet in my shirt pocket to prove it.